Mark My Words (part 2)
Posted by Martinlady on January 22nd, 2009
I mentioned yesterday that it seems to me that there have been a higher number of individuals leaving the controller ranks to join management than usual. Outside of those on the B pay scale wanting to get onto the A scale like they were originally planning on (and I really don’t get that from an activist’s point of view), I personally can’t understand why anyone would do so after being on the receiving end of management’s union-busting tactics and metaphorical boots on our necks. Then I received an unexpected phone call from a former coworker who’d become a supervisor before the IWRs – someone who long ago was a NATCAvist. And I heard the union-busting spiel.
- “NATCA should be encouraging people to move into management, not holding them back.”
- “Make the change from the other side.”
- “You’re too smart to just be a controller.”
- “You should already be a manager at your own facility.”
- “Other than the pay, what’s really so bad about the white book?”
- “Management is just taking back its rights.”
- “Anyone who has been a controller for more than 15 years without moving up is a bitter, mean individual.”
- “The best way to set yourself up for a contractor’s job after retirement is to have some DC experience.”
- “You gotta do what’s right financially for your family.”
There was more, but you get the idea. It was difficult to hear such nonsense coming from someone I had once respected. It was more difficult to realize how many people are accepting that nonsense as so-called reasonableness and jumping ship.
A couple of personal thoughts on the spiel:
I see no reason to accept anything management has to say that includes the phrase “NATCA should be doing” as anything but self-serving.
On the other side, I wouldn’t have the protections, even reduced as they are under the IWRs, that I have as a bargaining unit employee.
On the other side, I wouldn’t have the freedom to speak my mind and make those changes. Remember St. Louis? Management’s way or the highway?
“Just be a controller” really does say it all about how they see us, doesn’t it?
There is a great deal of concern that Obama’s support of workers in this country will lead to our economic downfall. Business groups maintain the Employee Free Choice Act is an affront to democratic principles and hurt job growth. Even lawyers are weighing in expecting greater business in the coming years.
Big business seems to think that their own employees making a living wage, receiving decent benefits and having a real say in their workplace is undemocratic and unreasonable. No one knows better what their job entails than the worker. No one is more invested personally than a worker who believes their employer truly considers their input valuable. Why wouldn’t an employer want to keep their employees safe in the workplace and provide protective equipment? Why wouldn’t an employer want their employees to have decent health insurance? Why wouldn’t an employer wish to invest in its best, most useful resource to keep them in prime operating condition?
One of our new hires recently made a comment to me that made me feel old…very old. From what I can gather (and I have no idea why anyone would deliberately pass along such erroneous information), someone had told said new hire that the green book had been around since the PATCO days. New hire was also told that they were not entitled to union representation in the workplace until the one-year probationary period had expired; which is untrue, we just can’t grieve removals within the probationary period.
New hire obviously received the correct information from me. But it reinforced my belief that we need to be doing more to teach the newest generation of workers and potential union activists of their rights and what tricks management and management wannabes will use to undermine the union’s purpose.
Big business is afraid of the perceived power of unions. Unions don’t hire and fire; they only attempt to ensure that the employer applies the same, objective criteria to everyone while taking steps to ensure workers stay safe and receive a living wage. That really isn’t an unreasonable goal and shouldn’t be an issue for an employer, should it?
Obama’s election created a collective sigh of relief for labor proponents. Hope is on the immediate horizon. But the war is not over; it will never be over. The battles may become non-existent or easier for a time, but the war will be simmering below the surface and we should always be prepared for a sneak attack. So long as big business believes that profit and their own self-perceived sense of power are more important than the safety and well-being of its workers, there is always the risk of being out-flanked.
This is extremely important for us controllers to realize and guard against. Look at our history thus far. PATCO, building management’s ranks, strike, NATCA, building management’s ranks, IWRs, building management’s ranks. All these new supervisors are being indoctrinated in the same self-defeating style of management that PATCO struck against and that caused NATCA to form. NATCA continues to rally against it, but our veteran ranks are retiring. A lot of that fire and knowledge isn’t being passed on to our newest generation.
If we learn anything from the IWRs, it is that the resentment in the FAA management ranks against controllers is alive and well and being taught to their newest generation. Our newest controller generation needs to understand, deep to their bones, that as bad as it is now, it can and will get worse if they’re not prepared enough, strong enough, unified enough to stand against it. Complacency and the expectation that someone else will take care of it for them will not work. They need to remain ever vigilant. Those veterans who are still left need to take the time and expend the energy to pass along, not only our ATC knowledge, but our knowledge of labor management relations, dirty tricks management uses, and the rhetoric they spout.
I bet if BEB could figure out a way to get this series to automatically post again in 10 or 15 years, the basic premises I’ve mentioned will be as applicable then as they are today. What say you?
January 22nd, 2009 at 9:01 am
Be GLAD you have a union.
Over the last two days…
Lockheed has been tapping AFSS people on the shoulder, taking them into an office, and firing them. No union.
All while promising ERAU the same number of openings. Most of those let go were the “older” former FAA people, while Lockheed keeps the new younger ones. Tenured FAA long term employees, singled out for being outspoken, or pro union, and now shutout with no income, health care, etc.
Now a burden on the taxpayers. Lockheed at 60% of the staffing promised. 75% of the facilities. They still get paid the same.
IG and EEO are being contacted. Lockheed says FAA behind it all.
January 22nd, 2009 at 9:18 am
two things.
1. I will be completely upfront. I am not a manager, I am not even a controller. I am simply someone who is trying to break into this career and will be atending the academy in a few months It seems that on almost every site I have read EVERYONE seems to bash on ANYONE who is in any form of managment. Do people really believe that anyone who moves up to a mangment position is automatically some sort of black heartend person who just wants to squash non-managers? I dont see what is wrong with someone who is good at their job and has a good head on their shoulders to move up. Wouldn’t you want good controllers to move up? Isn’t that part of what people love about this country, you work hard, you do your job, you get rewarded. If no one ever moved up who sees your viewpoint, how could you ever expect any change to come?
2. I have been told by a couple of diffrent people (not managers) that being a member of the union is of little use to new applicants. Since the union can not represent/protect them in any kind of termination case. Am I wrong about this? Just trying to find some info here.
January 22nd, 2009 at 9:54 am
[quote]I bet if BEB could figure out a way to get this series to automatically post again in 10 or 15 years, the basic premises I’ve mentioned will be as applicable then as they are today. What say you?[/quote]
I believe this will be true
January 22nd, 2009 at 10:13 am
What it all boils down to is this is a job. Just a job, and nothing more. And some people, a lot of you/us apparently, live to work. But many others, some would say those with the bigger picture, work to live. And for those of us who understand that no matter what the union says, this is really just a job, family always comes first. Your life, always comes first. So the whiners and bitches can try to make it into being more then that. But they’re just lying to themselves. Deluding themselves and trying to do the same to anyone who’ll listen, so that they’ll feel better about the choices they’ve made.
It’s funny, everyone pining for the glory days of old. But I can never remember a time when controllers weren’t bitching and moaning about leave, pay, each other, and the job in general. Especially not under the green book. There’s no reason to think that things would change if we went back to it. What I do know is that under the current system, there’s incentive to move up into management, other then to hide from the traffic. So hopefully, instead of complaining about another moron taking the reigns, we’ll start getting sharp, knowledgeable people into those positions, creating a better work environment for everyone. Actually, it’s already happening where I work.
So sit feel free to sit on the bench and bitch and moan if you want. Just know that no one ever won a ball game sitting on the bench.
January 22nd, 2009 at 10:14 am
@Eagles Fan..
There are multiple good examples of front line managers (FLEM’s) who remember where they came from and attempt to shield their people from the insanity that rains down from headquarters. There are even some (much rarer) good facility managers out there who have basically picked and chosen what to enforce from the IWR. I’m not saying these folks are the majority, but they are out there keeping their heads low and trying to wait out the IWR insanity.
Basically these people have realized that the secret to being a good manager is to be a fecal matter strainer. You strain out the poop running downhill on your people so you don’t get a big back up and crap flies all over everybody when you try to go by the insane rules coming down from the folks in the cubicals who have never controlled a single airplane in their life.
The part about a trainee not being benefited by NATCA is not exactly true. It is true that NATCA can offer a probationary employee very little protection. That being said we are running 100% NATCA on the new hires so far at my facility. You want every advantage when you are trying to check out and being a union brother is a huge one in the eyes of your trainers and co-workers.
We just had a trainee wait till the last possible day to submit his NATCA paperwork because he was financially ruined by the FAA’s employment shell game. We all understood and had a little cake for him the day he stepped into the union office to take his rightful place.
Good luck.
January 22nd, 2009 at 10:36 am
Sorry Sherlock but I have to disagree with you, I can remember a time when management & controllers work together to make sure things happen the way they need to. I can remember a supervisor going into the controller count for a day to get a controller leave. i can remember asking a manager why we where doing something and getting told a answer, not “because it policy”. I can remember people moving up to supervisors jobs with time on the boards and knowing what is was like to go down the tubes, people with more than a year as a FPL. Some of this before the green book and it was not always the Union doing the right thing, but I can remember a better time and because of that, I can hope for a change for the better. We don’t have to go back to the green book, but where we are now, is not right and things need to change.
January 22nd, 2009 at 10:39 am
Do people really believe that anyone who moves up to a mangment position is automatically some sort of black heartend person who just wants to squash non-managers?Yes. I dont see what is wrong with someone who is good at their job and has a good head on their shoulders to move up.Nothing, but historically, they have not. Promotion should be based on merit and people skills, not on cronyism and a lack of skills. What you fail to realize is that usually the weakest controllers, with the worst people skills, and the laziest attitudes become supervisors, and then spend the rest of their career as the worst supervisors with lousy people skills, lazy attitudes, and jealous rage permeating just blow the surface. This is not always true, but is a non-anomlous. Witness the many Phlegms who comment on this blog, the Main Bang, or the PCaU. Wouldn’t you want good controllers to move up?If only they did. A good controller usually will not leave the best job in the house to dodge traffic. Isn’t that part of what people love about this country, you work hard, you do your job, you get rewarded. Ahh, the naiveness of youth. If this were true, unions would not be necessary. Did you know the eight hour work day was the result of the hard work of an Atheist, Robert Green Ingersoll? Do you realize that without the labor movement in this country, we would be working for a company 16 hours or more per day, and then renting our homes from them, and buying our goos from the company store. Please research the labor movement and the fruits of hard work. While their are occasional stories of hard work making men wealthy, most wealth accumulated in this country is inherited, garnered by illegal activities, and/or acquired on he backs of the real workers. Even Adam Smith advocated an inheritance tax, which the Wingnuts have decided to call the Death Tax but should really be called the Paris Hilton tax.
Lane Kirkland: If hard work were such a wonderful thing, surely the rich would have kept it all to themselves.
Bottom Line: First line supervisor is a terrible job. You have no power for decision making. You are not respected by those who actually do the work, nor by those above you. While there is a large financial incentive in the Bush Economy Way of Doing Things to take a promotion, especially for those on a B scale, those that become supervisors are usually not the cream of the crop, but divisive traffic dodgers too lazy to work hard. You will find the needle in the haystack eventually, but most relished the union-busting tactics of the Shrub misadministration. That makes them unAmerican and inhuman.
January 22nd, 2009 at 10:41 am
What work I have done I have done because it has been play. If it had been work I shouldn’t have done it. Who was it who said, “Blessed is the man who has found his work”? Whoever it was he had the right idea in his mind. Mark you, he says his work–not somebody else’s work. The work that is really a man’s own work is play and not work at all. Cursed is the man who has found some other man’s work and cannot lose it. When we talk about the great workers of the world we really mean the great players of the world. The fellows who groan and sweat under the weary load of toil that they bear never can hope to do anything great. How can they when their souls are in a ferment of revolt against the employment of their hands and brains? The product of slavery, intellectual or physical, can never be great. – Mark Twain
January 22nd, 2009 at 10:44 am
Sherlock,
Your argument sums up as “Get a life, losers. Controllers have always whined and this is no different.” If you’ve read other articles on this site, or some of the insightful comments by BEB, you’ll see that they lay out a very good case for why exactly controllers, other FAA employees, and the general public should be angry at the events of the last 8 years. They back it up with facts. Trying to rebut that with ad hominems and bitterness just makes you look bad. If you’re nice, maybe FAAGuy will take you under his wing and at least help you stop embarassing yourself quite so much.
January 22nd, 2009 at 10:55 am
Eagles Fan
I feel the majority of FAA managers do not want a union environment. A manager needs to know he or she can put their trust in a supervisor. So should a good hearted, competent employee that supported the union be promoted to management they will never be trusted by the higher ups that either don’t know how to do the job or absolutely have no regard for the job.
In our facility there were a couple competent, supportive supervisors. When the new unqualified and extremely paranoid manager arrived. He quickly surrounded himself with “compliant” supervisors and began to shut out our sup. He started by micromanaging and second guessing the employees. He also started directing his sups to undermine the sups and subordinates that didn’t support his agenda. Our Sup had no choice but to leave. There is no honor among thieves and I have seen this first hand.
In answer to your question, there may be few good managers or supervisors left out there hiding in this hostile, anti union environment. Maybe things will change….
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Eagles Fan,
Being good at your job is not a pre-requisite or even a consideration in becoming a supervisor/manager.
January 22nd, 2009 at 3:12 pm
I said I would hope for a change in the future;
http://www.aviationnews.net/?do=headline&news_ID=163429
During the question and answer period, LaHood stated his intent to find a qualified FAA administrator who would address the NATCA contract dispute and “get this issue off the table.” He also committed to addressing how the air traffic control system is funded at the urging of Sen. John Rockefeller, IV (D-W.va.). LaHood also stated that he is against slot auctions in New York and that the auctions defeat the purpose of eliminating the slots to begin with.
January 22nd, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Things have changed, they have changed since 2006, to the member of management who said these:
“Make the change from the other side.”
They have made it quite clear to management that you follow their rules or you exit the job. So no changes can be made from the lower ranks, you only follow the orders of those above you.
“You’re too smart to just be a controller.”
Yes I am, but I also have a mind and the ability to make decisions and stand by those decisions. Going into management removes that ability and you are reduced to a lemming…..just follow your leader and if you dare break away from that pack you will be alone and with no support.
“Other than the pay, what’s really so bad about the white book.”
Sick and annual leave, problem solving, diciplinary/adverse actions, CIC, Performance Standards and appraisals, recognition and awards program, Leave for special circumstances, Holidays, excused absences, watch schedules and shift assignments, Position rotation and relief periods, just to name a few. Items where various facilities went crazy with power with.
“Management is just taking back it’s rigts.”
This one always gets me. They always had the right, it was those in management that choose not to enforce their rights and they turned this into a controller problem when the true blame belong right back at their own feet.
“Anyone who has been a controller for more than 15 years without moving up is a bitter, mean individual.”
They must now teach this phrase to all those who where inducted to the kool-aid. When I called out the FAA on their 50th anniversary coins, coins that were meant to be given out as awards and were be sold by a member of management on ebay, I was told by the HR person, that peope like me were just old and bitter. HUH? I was 20 years her junior and bringing to light a misuse of government property but because it was against a member of management and because I could defend my statements of today’s FAA, I was old and bitter.
“You gotta do what’s right financially for your family.”
This was and still is a cop out.
Yes there are a few, and I mean a few, good people in management, but they lie low to avoid the attention from above. I have seen some who were fairly decent sups become drunk with power after 2006 and I would no longer place them in that category. Today’s environment is about throwing blame at the controller and away from management.
January 22nd, 2009 at 4:07 pm
TexasRadar Says:
January 22nd, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Eagles Fan,
“Being good at your job is not a pre-requisite or even a consideration in becoming a supervisor/manager”.
In the FAA that is a true statement.
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:46 am
Eagles Fan,
When you get in this career field then please keep your ideas, and do what’s best for you ! The problem with NATCA and controllers in general is that these are well paid folks that control their frequency, control their households and pretty much buy/get whatever they want because their salaries allow it. They feel large and in charge. Now the Faa took a turn and they were not included in “Running the FAA”.
When management took back what “they” gave up (over the years) because of lack-of-management policies and leadership, natca folks felt like their little world came crumbling down. You would have thought that natca paid everyones salaries.
FAA facilities are no different from any other government agency or private industry where they all have everyday workers (controllers are them) and management makes policy. Sure, management has the right to bring in natca if they wanted to, but why would they when natca is constantly trying to back door them in every turn they make. Natca’s roll as we all once knew it is no more. Period, The End, The Fat Lady with the funny looking hat has Sung.
What I’m saying is this, the FAA took a turn and natca wasn’t allowed to turn down that road with them. NATCA doesn’t pay salaries, the FAA does. We all work for the FAA. When big corporations like GE, United Technologies, etc; have big board meetings or whatever, they don’t bring in Union Officials during these meetings. They don’t do this because the unions don’t run these companies.
We are about 2.5 years into the renewed FAA, and the controllers are still very bitter. It’s amazing that they are still looking for ways to “get even”, but their efforts are always worthless.
Another thing I should point out, controllers believe they should be their own bosses, and they should not have to answer to anyone but natca. It’s absurd, and it’s borderline delusional. They also believe that if they are going to have a boss, then the boss should not make more money then them because THEY WEAR THE HEADSET ! That alone tells you what your dealing with. They have actually recreated the meaning of Narcissism.
Now watch the comments that follow.
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:16 am
NATCA THEN MANAGEMENT Says:
We are about 2.5 years into the renewed FAA, and the controllers are still very bitter. It’s amazing that they are still looking for ways to “get even”, but their efforts are always worthless.
There are laws against what the FAA has done when it comes to labor. It is not just NATCA that has a problem with the criminal activities of FAA management. Just because Bush owned the justice department ment that FAA got a pass for awhile. Management will have to answer to what they have done. It won’t be the unions making the decisions, it will be judges reading the law as it is written, not how the FAA interpreted it.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:17 am
NATCA THEN MANAGEMENT Says:
We are about 2.5 years into the renewed FAA, and the controllers are still very bitter. It’s amazing that they are still looking for ways to “get even”, but their efforts are always worthless”.
Question: If you were in our shoes, would you be bitter?
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:30 am
Eagles Fan said:
“Do people really believe that anyone who moves up to a mangment position is automatically some sort of black heartend person who just wants to squash non-managers?”
To answer your question, no, not everyone that moves into a management position is incompetent and wants to throw their weight around. But you will find once you join the Agency, that unfortunately in the FAA, there is a very high percentage of management-types that are.
“I dont see what is wrong with someone who is good at their job and has a good head on their shoulders to move up. Wouldn’t you want good controllers to move up? Isn’t that part of what people love about this country, you work hard, you do your job, you get rewarded.”
See, you’re thinking private sector, non-controller-type here. First, many who “move up” in the FAA are not good at their controller jobs, even worse at supervision and in many cases, do not have good heads on their shoulders. Second, the mindset of many good controllers is that moving into management is not “moving up” or getting “rewarded.” Most good controllers I’ve known get their personal satisfaction from a job well-done and believe that the service of safety they provide is far more rewarding than moving into positions that care more about money than safety and pushing paper instead of tin. Most good controllers don’t feel it necessary to “control” their coworkers, just their traffic.
“If no one ever moved up who sees your viewpoint, how could you ever expect any change to come?”
A semi-valid point, but Towerflower addressed that earlier in her comment. In the Agency, those in management who do see our viewpoint are constrained by their peers and higher-ups so that they have to toe the company line or else see themselves on the hit list as well.
“I have been told by a couple of diffrent people (not managers) that being a member of the union is of little use to new applicants. Since the union can not represent/protect them in any kind of termination case. Am I wrong about this? Just trying to find some info here.”
It is true that the Union cannot file a grievance on a probationary employee being fired. However, the Union can let you know what avenues are available to you and provide contact information for those that may be able to help. But during that year, the Union is providing representation for you in other ways. Whether it’s working to correct the pay situation, representing you if management decides to put you on sick leave letter, representing you on a training review board, representing you during a follow-up security investigation, etc., or just an overall basic watch schedule, the Union is working for you.
Also, keep in mind that it is the Union who is working to get you equal pay for equal work and experience, not management.
NATCA THEN MANAGEMENT said:
“The problem with NATCA and controllers in general is that these are well paid folks that control their frequency, control their households and pretty much buy/get whatever they want because their salaries allow it. They feel large and in charge.”
“We are about 2.5 years into the renewed FAA, and the controllers are still very bitter. It’s amazing that they are still looking for ways to “get even”, but their efforts are always worthless.”
“Another thing I should point out, controllers believe they should be their own bosses, and they should not have to answer to anyone but natca. It’s absurd, and it’s borderline delusional…They have actually recreated the meaning of Narcissism.”
“Now the Faa took a turn and they were not included in “Running the FAA”.
I wrote:
“Just be a controller” really does say it all about how they see us, doesn’t it?
Big business is afraid of the perceived power of unions.
All these new supervisors are being indoctrinated in the same self-defeating style of management that PATCO struck against and that caused NATCA to form.
If we learn anything from the IWRs, it is that the resentment in the FAA management ranks against controllers is alive and well and being taught to their newest generation.
It seems that NATCA THEN MANAGEMENT illustrated my points much better than I did.
Let me quote one of his/her comments again, replacing a few words:
“The problem with management in general is that these are well paid folks that control their schedules and subordinates, control their households and pretty much buy/get whatever they want because their salaries allow it. They feel large and in charge.”
Keep in mind that management has seen pay raises in the past few years, while their subordinates have watched their pay drop and stagnate. Controllers have been subjected to the attitude and thought processes of those like NATCA THEN MANAGEMENT provided here for public viewing while watching those “running the FAA” make stupid, ill-advised decisions that adversely impact the safety of the NAS.
Need I say more?
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:41 am
Sherlock said:
“But many others, some would say those with the bigger picture, work to live. And for those of us who understand that no matter what the union says, this is really just a job, family always comes first. Your life, always comes first.”/i>
“So sit feel free to sit on the bench and bitch and moan if you want. Just know that no one ever won a ball game sitting on the bench.”
Positive change doesn’t come from people sitting on the bench, but from those who get involved to make that change happen. From your comment, it is unclear what you really meant, since you spent time bashing union activists, saying that we “live to work,” but then give the advice to not “sit on the bench”.
I doubt you meant it that way, but you’ve provided excellent reasons for joining NATCA and becoming a NATCAvist. NATCAvists work to improve the working conditions, policies and schedules so that more time for all of the workforce can be spent with our families and the quality of life is improved for all.
Unfortunately, people like you are the ones who reap the benefits of the work, while complaining about the “attitudes” who don’t sit on the bench and get involved. Without people (unions) taking the time to get involved and stand up for what’s right and working to improve our workplaces, we’d still have 16-hour workdays, children working in sweatshops and mines, no OSHA, no worker protections at all.
January 23rd, 2009 at 9:56 am
NATCA then MANAGEMENT
I submit you were never NATCA regardless of what you thought …Delusional
Management has done a HECKUVA job with the NAS since LABOR DAY 2006.
We all know what that means.
History will show WE (NATCA) were right and you were wrong.
Thank you for your view. Enjoy the next 8 yrs. of your career with an EDUCATED DEMOCRATIC AFRICAN AMERICAN PRESIDENT.
January 23rd, 2009 at 12:22 pm
NATCA then MANAGEMENT
What do you think of this little scenario.
President Obama, DOT secretary LaHood and the new FAA administrator take a leadership role and cut the bloated management ranks.
They of course offer you higher skill set superstars the chance to submit a resumes to all the short, hard to staff facilities that MANAGEMENT CREATED WITH THE CULTURE CHANGE INSTITUTED ON LABOR DAY 2006.
Of course no move money would be authorized this would be for the betterment of the agency and the laid off middle management employee.
If you are a low seniority FLM who most likely bid after IWR instituted you will get the added benefit of a forced move to cover all HARD TO STAFF AND UNDERSTAFFED FACILITIES CREATED BY MANAGEMENT since if you are lucky enough to be picked up by your original facility your seniority will be ummmm…ZERO. You will be first to go in a reverse seniority relocation for agency needs.
Poetic justice served.
Elections have consequences
January 23rd, 2009 at 12:28 pm
New Leadership
Put the pipe down, put your hands in the air where we can ALL see them, with your back towards us, walk backwards to the sound of my voice.
Now WAKE UP !
January 23rd, 2009 at 1:02 pm
NATCA then MANAGEMENT
When you all get RIF notices and reapply for controller jobs.
That guy/girl sitting behind you in shorts and a T-shirt washing YOU out is NATCA.
Have fun weakstick….
January 23rd, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Eagles Fan -
I hope you’re reading these comments, many (not all of course) are informed and accurate.
Sorry about your Eagles. See ya next year.
Seriously though – as a Rep, I can tell you that being a part of your union does have benefits, as well as the knowledge that you’re doing the right thing.
Your union rep will make sure that you are treated right, not abused in the arduous training process, that the facility complies with the entire process when you have difficulties (believe it or not, the FAA does not always do that and trainees have been terminated without their due process..), that you are given every chance to successfully complete your training, and then if you don’t make it, we do our best (which is usually much better than the facility’s efforts) to find you another job within the FAA.
We keep you informed (which the FAA does a pathetic job of), we act as YOUR advocate (and as a newbie, just how much do YOU know about the system and your rights?), we have relationships with local politicians that could act in your behalf if things get really bad – which they have in the past, like the time our Congressman had to put a call in to make things right for a transferring controller who wasn’t getting her due and promised pay.
We help with personal and away-from-work issues (try asking your supe or facility manager for a ride to work when your car craps out, or advice about babysitters or schools or health care).
There’s a book titled “Against The Wind” that chronicles the end of Patco and the Beginning and growth of NATCA. It’s factual, relatively short and a must read for anyone who wants to know more about just what NATCA is and why. I highly recommend it to anyone questioning the union’s existance. Pick it up and find out why we are here, it’ll open your eyes to the real FAA world.
January 23rd, 2009 at 3:00 pm
All the FLMs are going to be washed out by NATCA members wearing shorts, then the green book will come back with thousands in back pay, then all the controllers in the USA will live happily ever after …. The End.
January 23rd, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Eagle fan,
Good controllers are like a good wine. It takes time! A controller promotion is through the controller ranks not management. Start from low level facilities and then work your way to the BUSIEST of facilities,i.e. ATL, ORD,….etc thats how you improve ones selve as a controller.
Personally, every supervisor should be at a minimum a 10 year veteran with ATC 11-or ATC 12 background before even being considered for promotion to management.
From there the employees should be able to evaluate their supervisor skills which then can be used for future service within management. Screw up an employee evaluation and you are removed and back to boards.
I know a married couple in central Florida that are supervisors. She was a big NATCA rep, she even used to be proud when she was a young rep in Mississippi her manager was having a heart attack in a meeting and she refused to call 911, she always thought that was her hihest achievement against management. Now she turned her back on her fellow controllers to be a stupidvisor and ALL her crew hate her and believe she is the epitome of what management has turned into, a little power monster.
IMO, get certified first and then come join the conversation, whithout walking a mile in our shoes, you have ne idea how bad it is or by that matter how great our job is when there are checks and balance in place.
January 23rd, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Oh I know that married couple you are talking about, he has turned in a twisted person when it comes to trainees. While FPL controllers are getting longer breaks he demands that they do a quick turn and hit the boards again. Recently an instructor tried to stop the training on a trainee who was suffering from burn-out and she demanded that he take his break and hit the boards again. When the trainee laughed, she had him counseled about his attitude. She also sold out the union members for her deal for both her and her husband, by trashing 4,000 grievances that had been filed, thus ensuring a placement into management. There are some in NATCA (other places) that don’t believe that she and her husband would ever do the things that they are doing, but she and her husband are Judas in every sense of the word and have sold out for their 30 pieces of silver. They apply the IWRs to their interpetation and no one else’s. They only care about advancing their own agenda and do not care about anyone except for themselves. She will stab you in the back before you even have the chance to turn it on her. Their time will come, hopefully sooner than later.
January 23rd, 2009 at 7:52 pm
21 years on the boards. Turned 50 Jan.19th. Put the papers in Jan. 20th. Best job in the world, couldn’t take the little nazi phlegms looking over my shoulder 24/7 to find errors in my performance, something THEY cannot do. Tired of going home angry every night, seeing a once-proud profession taken over by petty little folks who don’t deserve to hold my dick as I piss.
The “natca then management” f*ckstick above…you are welcome for the big-ass raises and bonuses you got from Natca’s efforts. Funny how you management pukes try to downplay our dissatisfaction for unequal pay/benefits while you keep getting blood money/raises/bonuses and keep believing with your asshole-ish attitudes that you are a step above us. As the new FAA folks get wind of how replaceable you are for operational purposes your numbers will dwindle. Good luck getting checked out on the boards. Oh, and the new folks? As I laid out how effed up you pricks were on the boards and how effed up you pricks are as flms, and then I showed them how to run traffic as you sat on your ass at the desk and answered the phone…who has the credibility? Old school controller has passed on to the new school and you dumb bastards are going to lose.
You new controllers…get involved. Pay your dues…keep the mouth shut and the ears open while you are training. Don’t trust management…EVER. Good luck.
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:30 pm
SAME OLD **** boys and girls. More so then you can ever imagine! The pendulum goes back and forth; it changed direction Tues, it’ll be interesting to see where it goes.
Will LaHood change this ******* “everybody is somebody’s customer” BS? Will he clean out the ex-airline contract workers? They suck!
Does the next Administrator have to be a woman? How about any volunteers who would do the job for $1.00 per year (like Bloomburg does for NYC)? I know people, including myself, who would do the job for expenses.
Hey, I know. Lets piss and moan about petty **** and get some public attention about our “suffering.”
January 23rd, 2009 at 8:48 pm
My advice for the new generation of controllers(maybe eagles fan) is much like the post above..
Year 1– Stay “under the radar” for the first year. Get to work on time and be eager to train. Don’t get sucked in to the politics at work. Management can fire you for looking at them crosseyed.
Year 1+1day- Management can NOT fire you for looking at them crosseyed. You have protection with NATCA from out of control management. Get checked out and then start to become a controller. As many have posted, it takes years to become a top notch controller. By this time you will see who is good and who ducks the traffic. Emulate the controllers who love being a controller. You will find that very very few of this category go into management.
If you are good at it, being a controller is by far the best job in the world.
If you suck at it, being a controller is a living nightmare. I have seen too many “controllers” from the latter category doing it for the money and it eats them up.
Good luck to you!
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:26 pm
to NATCA then Management:
nah, nah, nah, nah. nah, nah, nah, nah. hey, hey, hey…goodbye!
When RETHUGLICAN DOT Secretary says the number 1 priority is a negotiated CONTRACT with NATCA, YOU are F@#$@!
You can take your IWR and shove em up your six. Oh, and if you are one of those pieces of rancid pig excrement who is still receiving CONTROLLER incentive pay, why don’t you play a game of hide and go f@#$! yourself you traffic dodging never was, never could be, POS!
January 23rd, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Brad,
Sorry I didn’t get to shake your hand and wish you well. I’d like to have worked with you more than I did. Best wishes in your retirement. Drop me a line some time through my blog. Your comments are welcome.
Kevin g
January 24th, 2009 at 4:47 am
The most sorry thing is, is that controllers are PISSED! Yes we are doing our jobs, but every day our hatred towards our FLeMs and other incompetent management grows. I worked in the private sector before I worked ATC. My supervisors (in the private sector) worked up through the ranks, and WOW, RESPECTED us as workers.
Todays traffic dodging FLeMs, and OMs, get NO respect, GIVE no respect, and deserve the same. How many were 1 year wonders as controllers, or “I worked for so and so airlines as a ramp rat” type people? Many I bet. I know of at least two. One of them that I know before they went to the FLeM side lost a NATCA FacRep facility election 20-1.
Yeaaaaaaaa, we have confidence in his leadership as OM, eh?
January 24th, 2009 at 8:11 am
Just A Slob
You are pathetic ! Re-read your post and envision the troll that you are. Let’s be completely clear to you and the rest that think things are going to change, NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE !
My colleagues and I have been on a very consuming letter writing campaign to not only the new administration, but also elected members that are entrusted with the governments aviation side of the house. Your salaries, job details, actual work versus break details, and you will love this one, we have also copied your hate filled responses that you all leave at these forums and have forwarded them onto these officials.
So consider the economy, people losing job’s, people not getting raises, folks losing houses,….do you actually think that the Obama Administration is going to send you all back to the green book way of life. LOL I find it amazing and laughable that natca has put all their eggs in Obamas basket. You all should have listened to John Carr years ago. LOL
January 24th, 2009 at 9:38 am
Hey flem pos, just what does this mean?
” You all should have listened to John Carr years ago. LOL”
Next…
” we have also copied your hate filled responses that you all leave at these forums and have forwarded them onto these officials.”
Too funny. We also encourage the same folks to visit here and read. We are not afraid of the truth.
You sound scared.
January 24th, 2009 at 10:06 am
“NATCA then management” is not scared, just stirring the pot.
His first post was idiotic, the rest of them childish. He gets off on the responses.
Ignore him (or her).
January 24th, 2009 at 11:32 am
NATCA THEN MANAGEMENT said:
“My colleagues and I have been on a very consuming letter writing campaign”
Would these be the same colleagues that were unable to date their letter here, or spell (then) President-elect Obama’s name correctly?
“Your salaries, job details, actual work versus break details”
This is from an individual who makes a higher salary than the controllers he/she is disparaging and who probably puts him/herself on “Management Activities” on the CRU-X for 8 hours without a break, or breakdown of what actual activities he/she has been conducting. One who has been receiving his/her raises for the past three years.
Your comments on a public forum are surely enlightening for those Congressional types reading.
Thank you for your participation.
January 24th, 2009 at 11:40 am
I rarely read these blogs and have never commented on one.
I am a veteran controller at one of the busiest and most complex facilities in the world.
I own a SUCCESSFUL business and have been involved in multiple businesses unrelated to Air Traffic Control. I and my spouse have multiple degrees. I manage numerous employees and handle very complex financial matters, again unrelated to government. I am also a lifelong Republican.
Could I have become a supervisor, a manager, a vice president in the FAA (vice president – that still makes me chuckle) – easily. As I was told repeatedly when I joined this agency, decades ago, “the sky is the limit for you…”. Before making a decision to choose such a route, I thought I should learn all of the “business” from the actual production aspect.
On the road to becoming an FPL at all of my facilities, it became apparent that becoming a controller comes down to one simple fact – either you can do it, or you cannot. Can it be taught? Some mechanical procedures and maneuvers can me memorized, and I have watched some marginal controllers eventually become “solid”, but that took years and they could do things that the training failures could not.
I watched as many controllers who could not do the job or could only do it poorly, and should have been terminated – not sent to a different facility – became supervisors, managers and, yes, vice presidents. Why? Because this is a government agency. It is no way shape or form a business. Are the bloated ranks of FAA management filled with training failures? Of course not. Many good controllers have moved into these jobs. They did good jobs as controllers and they are making every effort to do a good job in management. They are as a rule – good people. They get it.
When I first heard the FAA tagline “run it like a business…” my first thought was, which business model? The airline model? What metrics could possibly be used to define this job? Here is the key for all of those training failures/marginal controllers/non-controllers who chose FAA management positions– You do not get it. There is no key, there is no metric, there is no business. This agency is here for the American people. It is here to keep the sky safe. Efficiency is something that is easily recognized by those who can and perform the job and by – interestingly enough, another group of professionals that are in many ways similar to controllers – pilots.
The flying public are not our customers. They are people. People who trust us to do our jobs. The FAA does not pay controllers, the people on those planes do.
This line from a post from a supposed management type (at best this is a euphemism) above typifies my point –
“Your salaries, job details, actual work versus break details, and you will love this one, we have also copied your hate filled responses that you all leave at these forums and have forwarded them onto these officials”
Do you really think they don’t already have this information?
You just don’t get it.
In case you are wondering how I have the time to write something like this- I hire competent people and allow them to do their job. I manage their time and mine- wisely. I make Good People successful and they in turn make me successful. I get it. I let them know it and I reward them. If they don’t get it – I fire them.
January 24th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Eyes Wide Open gets it.
There is no business, no business model, no profit, no measure of profit, etc. I don’t think that the FAA really knows true operating costs. Is the this due to bad, stupid people, no. It’s just the Federal Government way of doing business.
For any of you, who’ve been around for at least 15 years, you’ve witnessed how the FAA buys controller chairs. Will we ever be done buying or fixing controller chairs? LOL
And this outfit is going to establish and implement NEXGEN? Not under this system it won’t. Can Barack/LaHood/??? change this. How? More $$ to NATCA? Green book and NexGen? GreenNex?? I love it!!
Hey Dog – Are you voting for Marx? The best “24K” candidate. He’s “pure gold”; 24K bonus baby postal man.
January 24th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
I am sure NATCA THEN MANAGEMENT and the rest of those losers have plenty of time on their time off the boards out of the control room to spend a ton of time writing letters.
While you are adding up my Time on Position please be sure to include the falsification of YOUR time on position you do every single day of the week. Make sure you also mention Mids don’t count in TOP and the pre/post (even though I am very well working) and other duties does not always count properly in TOP (Never has).
While I put my name on the break side to go take a pee I see your type leaving yourself on position or more likely “Other duties” 7.5+ hours a day EVERY SINGLE DAY. At first I was puzzled why my time meant so much to everyone involved yet this “important” time accounting tool is not being properly used by the ACTUAL PEOPLE IN CHARGE. It really did not take me long to figure out these jokers want to prove how important they are and how MUCH they are “working” and are willing to falsify their time (I am pretty sure Ventris said this is a fireable offense) but don’t worry those rules are only for the lower level employees.
NATCA THEN MANAGEMENT, please be sure you make copies of your comments on procontrollers websites too so congress can see what your type thinks of the little people. I hope you did not make posts on ANY website of this nature while “On position” and being paid a healthy sum I might add. I am going to go to my congressman and ask he investigate all FAA management for political activities while being paid outrageous amounts of money.
I would be careful as you appear to have threatened ME and others that come to this website. I can only hope when the poo hits the fan that people like you get found out and get let go, you see the FAA NEEDS controllers, they don’t need YOU. If you think that controllers are a dime a dozen and management types are not then it is YOU that is delusional.
January 24th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
Facts are funny things. It’s going to come down to credibility. When all of the crimes of goverment finally come to court, it will take a judge to look at all of the evidence and determine who is lying and who is telling the truth. All of the FLMs need to think about every document they created. The Unions need to start getting those documents NOW. President Obama has stated that he would not tolerate ignored FOI requests during his adminstration. (and don’t hold your breath waiting for Congress to act) If you all want change then everyone needs to get to work and GET THOSE DOCUMENTS.
We all need to help make change in government by bringing out to the world what has been happening.
January 24th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
I think Mr. McNabb will get a pretty good idea of what to expect from FAA management from reading the responses from “NATCA THEN MANAGEMENT”.
What a horrible set of human beings.
January 24th, 2009 at 11:13 pm
Hey Natca then Management,
You are such a *******. It’s people with attitudes like yours that make the controllers hate us. They don’t feel “large and in charge” as you put it. If we as an agency provided ANY leadership, rather than demanding obedience through fear and intimidation, they wouldn’t have to feel any way other that being ready to follow a true leader. Lack of leadership causes a vacuum and some one has to fill it.
And it “is” as you say thier salary as you put it, so why do you even care about what they do with thier money. It couldn’t be a little jealousy on your part could it? tsk tsk. we after all DID ride to our great pay on the back of the Union didn’t we. And all the time as FAAMA was trying to submarine the agreement or at least scale back the amount of pay the controllers got. Nice…real nice. So what deos that make us? Freeloaders or hangers on or something like that I “think” you might be able to get what I’m saying, but then again if you’re in management that might be questionable
And who pays everyones salaries? It’s the tax payer through the FAA that pays the controllers salaries, the same tax payer that the FAA has been screwing since time immemorial. And controllers are taxpayers. You would think that there would be some accountability there don’t you. But the FAA management from the administrator right down the the Facility chiefs don’t have ANY accountability. None. What a fine example to set for your workers eh? Nice…real nice. What would happen if there were accountability for the management of the FAA? It would be like a bunch of cockroaches running after you turn the light on. Everyone blaming everyone else. Don’t believe it? Look at what happened after Louisville. Everybody’s fault but my own. Everyone had excuses. Yeah right. We all know who is responsible for staffing. Not the controllers or NATCA. Ask the FAA they’ll tell you who in charge dammit. In fact if the FAA had listened to NATCA, then there is at least a chance that that accident would not have happened.
And you talk about a turn the FAA took and NATCA wasn’t allowed to turn with them. That was motivated by an anti-union administration that did all it could to get rid of NATCA, because NATCA made them look so bad for so long. That’s why the Union wasn’t allowed to “turn” as you put it with the FAA. Hopefully that’s getting ready to change.
And you go on to say that “FAA facilities are no different from any other government agency or private industry” Boy where have you had your head for the last 70 or so years that there has been some government agency who was responsible, (now pay attention this is the important part) for the PUBLIC SAFETY. There is no government agency or no private business like the FAA. None. So don’t go comparing the FAA to big corporations like GE, United Technologies. There is no comparison. These controllers have an awesome responsibility. That is and should be reflected in the policies that apply to them, like early retirement and a liberal break policy. (which as we both know has gone out the window)
And you say “management has the right to bring in natca if they wanted to, but why would they when natca is constantly trying to back door them in every turn they make”. What a pompous attitude that is. If you only stopped and looked what the Union is trying to do is fix the problems that we as managers make. And that has been a lot lately So stop being so full of yourself and LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN. Maybe the union is saying something that we should be listening to. The controllers feel a need to alert the public to dangerous situations. Why? Because WE screw everything up. Also when has NATCA ever gone to the press without an issue? Never.
And as far as the Unions efforts to get even being unsuccessful, don’t be so sure there pal. There is a new sherriff in town and hopefully they’ll make the light shine where it’s been dark for many a year. And I don’t think the new administration is going to have to change much to expose the FAA for the sick agency it is. And when it does, I can’t wait to see managements reaction. They’ll probably try to blame the controllers.
And you also said “controllers believe they should be their own bosses”. Well Duh..if there was any leadership in the FAA the controllers would follow it with out a doubt. But there isn’t any leadership, and if you were any kind of “leader” you would be able to see that and try to provide the leadership that the controllers want and deserve instead of gloating over the controllers current situation.
And as far as you saying “They also believe that if they are going to have a boss, then the boss should not make more money then them because THEY WEAR THE HEADSET !” Take a look around. Who do you think should or does make more money, the HEART SURGEON or the hospital administrator. You think someone deserves to be paid more because he/she does paperwork, and makes bad decisions? You my friend are the number 1 reason that the controllers hate us and the state of the FAA in terms of labor relations is so frickin bad.
Now Eagles Fan, watch and listen to the deafening silence that follows.
January 25th, 2009 at 7:03 am
NATCA THEN MANAGEMENT:
“My colleagues and I have been on a very consuming letter writing campaign to not only the new administration, but also elected members that are entrusted with the governments aviation side of the house”.
http://themainbang.typepad.com/blog/files/faama_update.pdf
The above has an interesting memo from FAAMA talking about their lobby efforts. Courtesy of themainbang. Below is another. This is what controllers are up against.
http://www.faama.org/files/news/president/January_2006_Association_Update.pdf
NATCATHENMANAGEMENT: You may have harmed your organization’s goals by posting your venom against controllers. It will only make controllers re-dedicate themselves to actively speak out against management weaknessness and exploitation. It is just more ammo for NATCA to get the bogus FAA management union FAAMA de-certified. That should be one of NATCA’s priorities this year. FAAMA actively lobbied Congress to go against then Sen.Barack Obama’s bill to help controllers in the contract impasse with the FAA. ILLEGAL, since FAAMA members are funded by the U.S. Taxpayer.
If you are like many in management, you probably did alot of your time consuming letter writing campaign while on CRU-X on: Management-other duties. Every now and then you would glance up at the controllers keeping the skies safe and then go back to writing another congressman or senator. I am sure the proprietor of this website has your IP address and it probably comes from an FAA computer.
January 26th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
“I am sure the proprietor of this website has your IP address and it probably comes from an FAA computer.”
I am sure most people that go to blogs don’t realize that. I never use the computers at work (Even on break) because I feel part of what I blog is political in nature. I am still being paid by the tax payers while on break and blogging, reading or discussing things of a political nature could appear to others to be totally inappropriate.
Records from previous blogs have shown over and over again hundreds of hits from FAA computers. (That’s right they know if you just come here and never type a word.) It shows exactly how much free time management has on their hands. I had to laugh out loud that the FAA was worried that so many people in the FAA would be watching the Obama inauguration (INSTEAD OF WORKING) that it would take down the FAA computers so they would broadcast it. They KNOW this happens on a regular basis in the offices and are worried they are not getting enough work out of me.
Disgruntled Sup ,
We need more people that think this way and can do something to make the FAA a better place. I watch one after another management propaganda video (FORCED I should say as it is not voluntary) that really does not get it.
We can never move forward until we have peace at work. This peace can only come about from a fully agreed upon, ratified contract. Some of the things in some of the videos are some things we possibly could do, but I refuse to help out until we get a real contract. The sooner the FAA figures this out the better.
January 26th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
>get the bogus FAA management union FAAMA de-certified.
FAAMA* is not a union, therefore they are not certified as such. They are an association, and lobbying Congress is one function of the association. It occurs government-wide with the Federal Managers Association (which FAAMA grew out of). I assure you lobbying is OK for the association, as is lobbying on the part of NATCA.
*I am not a member of FAAMA nor to I speak for them or represent their interests.
January 26th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
I hope the controllers become the supervisors and managers soon, you will not beleive what I am about to say!!
On or about January 15th at ISP the ILS for Rwy 06/24 was changed. No longer are the OM used, but went to a GPS approach. New fixes, new2 min; and Oh did I forget to mention No controller was breifed till the 21st. N90 ISP sector was breifed and were aware of the change for over a month. As I type there are controllers that still not have been breifed.
The controllers are using the old map on the radar, and were told it’s only off by 1/8th of a mile. Wish F. Lee Bailey was still alive.
The same people changed the ATIS on us without a breifing and we were not told until AF came upstairs to pull the plug on the old ATIS.
They want to indite Cheney for war crimes, how about indicting sombody for sitting at a desk and not knowing what they are doing?
January 26th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Actually, FAAGuy… not exactly:
What it boils down to is this: FAAMA can use their own dues money for lobbying Congress, but they’re not supposed to use any agency funds for that. No computers (for email), no copiers, etc.
The reality is that this prohibition is ignored, and in fact FAAMA is often used as little more than another lobbying organization by the leaders of the FAA. John Carr highlighted numerous examples of FAAMA using FAA email addresses and computers for lobbying efforts on his blog.
The simplest way for the FAA to steer clear of any violations would be for the agency to quit giving official time to FAAMA. That’s about as likely to happen as for the FAA to treat all managers the same way they treat all employees.
January 26th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Thank you BEB for the correction. In most controller’s eyes, the FAAMA is a bogus organization(union) made up of self-serving ,coattail-dragging, traffic-dodging, controller wannabeebutcouldn’t do its.
January 27th, 2009 at 12:48 am
Could you imagine if NATCA members used FAA computers (located on the center floors, for instance) to carry on a lobbying campaign? If we wrote letters to Congressmen asking for help ? I’m thinking somebody could get fired…….
Are you saying that the FAAMA members do such things?
January 27th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
BEB,
I don’t think we’re in disagreement. My point was that lobbying is OK for FAAMA* as much as it is for NATCA. FAAMA* does get some duty time to attend conventions each year, otherwise AFAIK, all their activities are conducted off duty time.
I agree with you that FAAMA* and NATCA should conduct themselves in accordance with the laws and regulations when it comes to lobbying. I think both groups should be very careful with the way they use FAA resources so as to not run afoul of the law.
*I am not a member of FAAMA nor to I speak for them or represent their interests.