Pay Cuts…
Posted by Blue Eyed Buddhist on August 25th, 2008
For the past, oh, two years or so the FAA’s talking heads and bigwigs have been proclaiming that the agency’s air traffic controllers haven’t suffered a pay cut with the imposition of the agency’s “White Book” work rules.
Acting Administrator Sturgell told Rob Mark the same thing at Oshkosh a few weeks ago.
(Of course, they also call it a “contract” with a straight face, ignoring the fact that contracts are agreements that are entered into by two parties. They continue to call it a contract despite pretty much everyone in the world knowing that it’s not. Why anyone takes them seriously, given this basic fact, is beyond me.)
Here’s a little tidbit that I’ll quote, then translate for you all:
The Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U) increased 0.5 percent in July, before seasonal adjustment, the Bureau of Labor Statistics of the U.S. Department of Labor reported today. The July level of 219.964 (1982-84=100) was 5.6 percent higher than in July 2007.
The Consumer Price Index for Urban Wage Earners and Clerical Workers (CPI-W) increased 0.5 percent in July, prior to seasonal adjustment. The July level of 216.304 (1982-84=100) was 6.2 percent higher than in July 2007.
Translated, that means that this year, the FAA’s controllers who are above the top of the new pay bands (which are about 30% lower than the old pay bands, which certainly sounds like a pay cut to me, but what do I know) are taking what amounts to a 6% pay cut.
The FAA will spin this furiously. They’ll say “oh, it’s not a pay cut, and besides people who are over the top of the pay band will receive a lump sum payment, blah blah blah” but the reality is this: In the long run, stuff that cost 100 bucks last year will cost 106 bucks this year.
Traditionally, while federal jobs don’t make you rich (especially by John McCain’s standards of “rich” being at least $5 million a year) they at least keep pace with inflation.
Air traffic controllers have always been paid a pretty high wage compared to most government workers, but of course most government workers can’t turn a jet full of people into a smoking hole in the ground by a few moments of inattention or simply saying something wrong, so that’s probably fair.
Thanks to the FAA’s Imposed Work Rules, though, controller pay is “frozen”, which makes it sound like they’re staying in one place.
They’re not. They’re losing money to inflation, every moment that goes by.
Lots of the rest of the agency has been suffering under “Core Comp” (where the employee is getting cored out by the FAA) but at least most of them get to snag the inflation increases each year. To those of you who are going to keep pace with inflation, I say you should count yourselves lucky.
The most notable thing about the entire pay deal is that the FAA made all this noise about how they had to rein in costs in the Air Traffic Organization, and they did so by… slashing the wages of the workers but leaving supervisors’ and managers’ pay untouched. In fact, supervisors and managers continue to get all the pay raises they did before the new regime started.
In other words, those of us doing the work are paying for the continued-to-increase wages of those who are WATCHING us do the work.
And now, finally, rumors start to spread about a “new” offer from the FAA to the ATC workforce. I don’t know if they’re talking about the offer they made last June (which the FAA claimed was their absolute, final offer) or if this is something new, but the rumor is that they’re going to raise wages 7% across the board.
Of course, given that the controllers have already missed (over the past couple of years) around 7% in wage hikes, and that the “B” pay scale for controllers is about 30% less than what it’s supposed to be under the only contract that is actually signed by both parties, the reality is that the FAA’s leaders are just blowing smoke. This isn’t a real offer and we don’t have a real contract.
After all, if we had a real contract, then why are they still making offers?
August 25th, 2008 at 3:40 am
In other words, those of us doing the work are paying for the continued-to-increase wages of those who are WATCHING us do the work.
Why do you hate America, Paul?
August 25th, 2008 at 5:37 am
I would assume that 7% across the board is only toward the new pay scale which is what’s recognized under the white book.
August 25th, 2008 at 6:09 am
Five Years,
I understand your point, however, most successful companies give pay raises to ALL of it’s employees, not just management. Most sucessful companies DO NOT take incentive bonuses meant for the workers and give it to management only. Most sucessful companies do not call their workers “glorified baggage handlers”.
I could go on, but I won’t.
August 25th, 2008 at 6:36 am
“Most Successful Companies” would cringe at the ammount of middle managment in the FAA. If the FAA really wants to run like a business, the first thing they SHOULD do is gut all the extra middle managment. There’s no company on earth that has this many $150K+ managers watching so few employees. That’s where a lot of their excess is. If Lockheed, Boeing, Harris, or anybody else gets their hands on ATC, that’s the FIRST thing they’ll do…
August 25th, 2008 at 6:43 am
If they really wanted to give a 7% pay raise they could just impose it. We didn’t vote on the other pay scale so why do they need our OK to raise the pay back up?
August 25th, 2008 at 6:50 am
Myview:
The sarcasm indicator was lit for that post. Sorry about the confusion, and FTWFMF.
August 25th, 2008 at 9:13 am
I had my pay cut by more than 30% because of the IWRs. Makes me wanna hurt something every time I hear the FAA say they didn’t cut pay.
August 25th, 2008 at 10:02 am
Psshhttt… you greedy air traffic controllers making $100k+, you don’t need that extra money. You got oodles of it already. Rich people need to pay their fair share. Not receiving a fair wage is equivalent to paying a fair share, I think.
August 25th, 2008 at 11:45 am
DisgruntledFlyer,
You’re an idiot. You should count how many controllers make 100k+.
It’s not as many as you think.
And quite frankly, I don’t think I want to be on a plane controlled by someone having money problems.
Have a nice day.
August 25th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
DisgruntledFlyer,
“Not receiving a fair wage”
At least you agree our wages are not fair.
August 25th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Impacted is exactly right! If we were running the FAA like a business 5000 in middle management would be out on the streets tomorrow. Most facilites run just fine without a FLEM. Give us a few secretaries to do the paperwork and there’s no need for any of them. We are the ones actually separating the planes, what exactly is their critical nature that justifies their pay bands? End of year reviews? Rotating position assignments? ‘Nuff said.
August 25th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
DisgruntledFlyer,
I hope your next flight has someone working it that has zero experience and making less than $50K a year. I guess that is what you want right? That is what you have right now when you fly almost anywhere in the US.
I guess we are lucky in ZAB our new CPCs make $74K a year too bad the median house in Albuquerque is $216,200, with most FAA employees living in the Northwest (Median is $322,000) and Northeast (closer to work with a median of $241,000) (Info taken from http://www.crs.com) this problem is worse in other areas (California) , at least here you can live far away from work here, then you have to drive 45 to 60 minutes to get to work then gas becomes a problem if you are barely getting by. With a 4 hour overtime assignment the poor newbie only gets to keep 2 hours of it as “Clear” after gas and taxes and 2 hours wasted on the road.
THANKS FOR GIVING US NO PAY RAISES FAA.
August 25th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
I forgot to add you can live far away for decent priced homes.
One other thing to look at people is
http://php.app.com/fed_employees/search.php
There are at least 693 FAA “Managers” making $168K a year and well over 1000 making $160K+ if that does not get you hot under the collar I don’t know what will. Do a search and see what you favorite jerkoff flm is making.
August 25th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
no offense, but I do believe that “disgruntled flier” was being very sarcastic. At least that was my take, I don’t think he was being serious.
August 25th, 2008 at 6:03 pm
“Impacted is exactly right! If we were running the FAA like a business 5000 in middle management would be out on the streets tomorrow. Most facilites run just fine without a FLEM. Give us a few secretaries to do the paperwork and there’s no need for any of them. We are the ones actually separating the planes, what exactly is their critical nature that justifies their pay bands? End of year reviews? Rotating position assignments? ‘Nuff said”
Another psycho thinking ATCers dont need a boss. Everyone has a boss. Why are you so jealous of “your” boss ? We all have one. My god get over it will ya. If I were as unhappy as you ATCers then I would quit. Why is it you guy’s dont ? Doesn’t quality of life mean more then $$$$$ ? Or do most of you ATCers have nothing else to fall back on, and would be lucky to make a 1/3rd of your salaries ?
August 25th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Sarcasm does not translate well to a message board like this.
August 25th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
WOW:
Everybody has an appendix too. It doesn’t make the appendix useful or necessary.
August 25th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
“Another psycho thinking ATCers dont need a boss. Everyone has a boss. Why are you so jealous of “your” boss ? We all have one. My god get over it will ya. If I were as unhappy as you ATCers then I would quit. Why is it you guy’s dont ? Doesn’t quality of life mean more then $$$$$ ? Or do most of you ATCers have nothing else to fall back on, and would be lucky to make a 1/3rd of your salaries ?”
First of all nobody said we don’t need bosses. Many of us have really managed people in real life businesses, the FAA does not have bosses they are middlemen to hand down BS from the higher ups so nobody has to take responsibility for their actions in management.
Guess what WOW, many of us ARE quitting, one after another. Many of us are less than a year from retiring with a full retirement. Yes. I hate every F’ING day I go to work and yes my quality of life SUCKS.
NO many of us DO NOT have anything else to fall back on, I used to manage a store making more than our new troops make and will make after they finish training. ATC does not offer a route to other jobs, ATC is pretty useless for anything else as far as other jobs go.
Please if some AHOLE is happy making 1/3 of what I am making or better yet 1/3 of what the new people are making which is $18K to start and $33K while in brutal training then go the F ahead. Hey that is $6K to $11K in case you could not figure that out. Even the CPCs in ZAB only make $74K that is less than $25K bro, that sucks in a town where a waitress at the Stoneface makes more than what you say we should be happy making.
I think most of us are tired of having one supe watch over 4 people and 6 watching those 30. THAT is what we are up in arms about. Those 34 are making $124K to $168K and actually “work” 10 to 16 hours a week, actually even that is a stretch because it is hard to tell if eating chips in TMU or taking a poo on goverment time was meaningful work.
Last comment my friend. Most of are also pissed off that the FAA has RUINED a job I used to feel privileged to do FOR ANY MONEY. Money is most certainly NOT keeping me here, the simple fact I can see retirement from a few more months ahead and then a middle finger to you and everyone that screwed the fAA up.
August 25th, 2008 at 6:56 pm
“Another psycho thinking ATCers dont need a boss”
I have to say one more thing. No we don’t need a Boss. We CIC all the time even though their ranks are fully staffed and everything runs fine. Matter of a fact if we only CICed and never had these ultra important “Bosses” you NOR the flying public would ever know. Some smaller towers run a many of the shifts “Without” bosses GASP!
Many business can run with only one wether it was the employee or the “Boss” only showing up. If none of the bosses showed up in my facility it would still run normally. It could for months perhaps years, it could be “managed” just like it is now, from the region, no one at ZAB makes meaningful decisions anyhow it all comes from the region. They don’t train our “Managers” to really manage anything, they don’t train them to lead they make them follow orders, nothing else.
If none of the CONTROLLERS show up there would be a loss of services. A MAJOR ONE.
August 25th, 2008 at 7:13 pm
when I first started at my facility 17 years ago there was 1 manager 1 part time secretary and 1 temp supe. Today there are less controllers 1 manager, 1 FULL time secretary and 2 permanent supes. The place could not be more f…ed up now. The supes do nothing but check ebay play mindsweep and gripe about how we need more time on position….
August 25th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Zabnut,
Personally, I think of “boss” as nothing more than a backwards s(stupid) s.o.b. It gives me pleasure when I say “what do you want me do, boss?”
I agree with what you said but really, for me, I’m just counting down the days until age 50. I’m exhausted from caring and I’m parched from spitting into the wind. Unless there is an Executive Order in the first 90 days of an Obama presidency fixing this mess, I’m out of ZAB July of 2009.
August 25th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
WOW: If you don’t get the point, it’s OK to just read and not show your ass with a response. Really!
August 25th, 2008 at 10:45 pm
I think Disgruntled was being sarcastic as well. I think it’s pretty profound that when someone IS being sarcastic, what they say is almost indistingushible from the ACTUAL arguments that some people are making.
In other words, we can’t even tell when someone’s being sarcastic and when they’re actually trying to advance an argument. The arguments for the “other side” have gotten so stupid that we can’t tell them from someone who’s just joking around.
Personally, I’m not anti-boss. We need bosses in the FAA. We need GOOD bosses, though, not the collection of whack jobs we have presently holding down far too many high-level positions.
But I think it’s incredibly hypocritical for the FAA to have declared that they MUST cut salaries to help pay for stuff like NextGen (and why should the ATC workforce pay for that, BTW?) and then they turn around and let the managerial salaries keep going up, and up, and up.
What does that say? It says that A) they think they’re more important than the workers are, and B) that they don’t REALLY need to cut salaries- or at least don’t need to cut them across the board.
I’d be a lot more impressed, and a lot more likely to take the FAA seriously, if everyone in the FAA had taken the same pay cut that they handed out to controllers (30% to new ones, complete pay freeze including zero inflation increases to existing ones).
The fact that they didn’t slash everyone’s pay that much says one thing: They believe controllers make too much money. Okay, well, we’ll see whether that’s true or not by the results, right?
The results thus far are pretty unimpressive, though, and they’re getting worse.
And as far as the “if you don’t like it then why don’t you just quit?” scenario… in case you haven’t paid any attention, people ARE just quitting. They’re doing it left and right. They’re retiring in droves and more trainees than ever are outright resigning and even CPCs are resigning.
That almost never used to happen, and in a job that takes 3 years to get to basic full certification and 5 years to really learn to do WELL, that’s a pretty big deal. That’s millions of dollars worth of experience and talent and investment walking right out of the door.
Not many companies can survive that kind of brain drain.
Again, we’ll see how the FAA does.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:38 am
“If none of the CONTROLLERS show up there would be a loss of services. A MAJOR ONE”
Sure,……and if none of the GM plant workers didnt show up then cars would not be built either, and they also have mind-sweeper/ebay Managers in charge. CONTROLLERS are no better then anyone else.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:41 am
Factory Worker, do you know what controllers do for a living or are you from the “glorified baggage handler” school of thought embodied by FAA upper manglement?
August 26th, 2008 at 7:41 am
Mr factory worker, I beg to.differ. If you did show up to work a few cars would not be made true. But you would be replaced in no time flat or outsourced to another country. ATC could not function without us in its current state. I guess Marion convinced you ATC is so simple a caveman could do it. I bet you a year’s salary I can learn any average “skilled” factory job quicker than one could learn mine. I bet I get no takers.
August 26th, 2008 at 7:42 am
Max, get back to the production line, son! We all need to be more efficient making all of those ATC widgets we turn out every day and your 15-minute break is over. Productivity is gonna drop if you don’t get back in line, and our customers the airlines will start looking elsewhere for a better service-point widget-provider.
If our customers go to another widget-provider, then we will have to close your ATC-widget factory and the Board of Directors will be realy really steamed at the eight layers of management bureaucracy between the ATC widget-production front-line mananger, his ATC widget-area operations manager, the ATC widget-area operations mananager’s manager (the assistant widget factory manager), who will in turn have to answert to the ATC widget-factory manager, who will have to answer to the regional ATC widget operations manager, who will be called on the carpet by the regional ATC widget manager, who will get chewed out by the national vice president for eastern ATC widget operations, who will likely have to buy the next round of golf for the national ATc widget chief executive officer.
Don’t you see man?!? For the want of one poorly crafted ATC-widget at your level, just one moment of missed production or lost efficiency, the entire ATC widget power structure could be shaken to its foundation? Great Scott! Get back to work immediately- we might have to offshore your tower/tracon/center to India!
Gumby
August 26th, 2008 at 8:06 am
Why do you think the US Government made it illegal for controllers to STRIKE ( there, I said it)? The economy STOPS. Airlines out of business, politicians stuck in Washington unable to fly on their junkets to Europe, no boxes delivered to your door from China, the US Post Office goes under, etc., etc. So GM quits making cars for a few days, whatever. Controllers are highly important to the National Economy, and take several years to train. The job is a gut-breaker, and mandatory retirement at 56 means earning less pay for a shorter career than your average factory worker.
So, the Bush Administration says, lets’s cut/freeze their pay, make them wear “business casual” to a job no one in the public sees them at (except at Oshkosh where we give them PINK T-shirts), and let loose our managers on harrassment attacks with trumped up charges and massive overtime. THAT will keep them quiet !
EXCEPT, controllers have aggressive personalities, and don’t accept Chicken-S%#t lightly. Good Luck, FAA.
Oh, by the way, if McCain wins in November, you will see a MASS exodus from the controller ranks by January. Not a good time to fly, or put you family on an airplane.
August 26th, 2008 at 8:13 am
Of course, then there’s also the gradual elimination of Controller Incentive Pay (CIP) which many controllers receive (or should I say received). In my case, that beginning 2 years ago, I’m earning 2% less per year each year and it means that in 2012 and thereafter, I’ll be earning 10% less per year than I would have been without the Imposed Work Rules (IWR). Now, before I call that a pay cut, I better look in the FAA dictionary for the words “Pay” and “Cut.”
I’ll get back to you.
August 26th, 2008 at 9:31 am
“I think Disgruntled was being sarcastic as well”
BEB, I was thinking the same thing until I saw his comments in the lates MainBang offering. Nondisgruntled and Zabnut have him pegged for what he is.
August 26th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
Just got word that the Air Traffic system has Shut down. I hope that there are enough qualifed folks left to deal with this emergency. This is a disaster happening now.
August 26th, 2008 at 1:01 pm
If the GM workers went home I’d still buy a FORD!
August 26th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
System meltdown-
NADIN system in ATL – communications failure.
Latest FAA website printout shows 14,000 delays, and climbing.
Can’t file flight plans. More than 600 airlines on the ground, away from the gate for more than 1 hour, unable to move.
ouch.
August 26th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
correction….more than 600 AIRLINERS – not airlines– airliners–, on the ground, away from the gate more than one hour, and unable to depart.
Hope they got lots of cold soda and snacks, and that the lav is not MEL’d.
This could be awhile.
August 26th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
First message:
ATCSCC Advisory
ATCSCC ADVZY 043 DCC 08/26/2008 FLIGHT PLAN ISSUES_INFO
RAW TEXT:
ATCSCC ADVZY 043 DCC 08/26/08 FLIGHT PLAN ISSUES_INFO NADIN HAS EXPERIENCED A PARTIAL FAILURE. A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF
FLIGHT PLANS ARE NOT BEING RECEIVED BY FAA FACILITIES. A HOTLINE HAS BEEN ESABLISHED TO ANSWER QUESTIONS. THE NUMBER FOR THE HOTLINE
IS 703-925-5387 PIN # 2559. A BREIFING WILL BE HELD ON THE HOTLINE AT 1815.
261810-262359
08/08/26 18:10
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Two hours later- this message:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ATCSCC ADVZY 049 ATL/ZTL 08/26/2008 CDM GROUND STOP
MESSAGE:
CTL ELEMENT: ATL
ELEMENT TYPE: APT
ADL TIME: 1951Z
GROUND STOP PERIOD: 26/1941Z – 26/2130Z
CUMULATIVE PROGRAM PERIOD: 26/1846Z – 27/0159Z
DEP FACILITIES INCLUDED: (NOWEST) ZFW ZAU ZMP ZKC ZME ZID ZMA ZHU ZJX ZOB ZBW ZTL ZNY ZDC
PREVIOUS TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AVERAGE DELAYS: 7013/1584/51.6
NEW TOTAL, MAXIMUM, AVERAGE DELAYS: 14207/1691/104.5
PROBABILITY OF EXTENSION: MEDIUM
IMPACTING CONDITION: EQUIPMENT / OUTAGE
COMMENTS: DUE TO THE NADIN OUTAGE, ACFT HAVE BEEN OFF THE GATES FOR 60 PLUS MINS.
EFFECTIVE TIME:
262005 – 262230
SIGNATURE:
08/08/26 20:06
August 26th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
FAA spokeswoman Kathleen Bergen in Atlanta said there are no safety issues and officials are still able to speak to pilots on planes on the ground and in the air.
LOL, just like always huh Kathleen? If safety isn’t an issue why is there AN EFFING GROUND STOP???? God this agency makes me ill.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Hey moron, I do my bosse’s “job” every day when he gets done working bankers hours, scamming credit hours or when he decides to take a break when the **** is hitting the fan.
Do you understand that? The controllers, who are often working position do the phlegms job daily. Without them the planes still get from point A to B. We work out the break rotation, we log out equipment. So yes, we don’t need them as “bosses.” As a taxpayer it’s appalling to pay somebody six figures for working traffic 4 hours A MONTH!!!
August 26th, 2008 at 2:20 pm
NADIN “Outage”, equals “FAA Purposeful Spoliation Of Evidence”.
John J. Tormey III, Esq.
Quiet Rockland
August 26th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
“There will be flight delays,” Bergen said. “It could be any location, because one facility is now processing flight data for everybody.”
Is this part of the FAA consolidation of systems? It sounds like trying to save money at the cost of our true customers the people flying in the planes.
When will people figure this out, even when they do how long will it take to fix it?
August 26th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
this is the chest pains before the heart attack…… Tick tock, tick tock…….
Hey bobbay, need an aspirin?
August 26th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Meant to post here on the Follies, but I got crossed up with the TMB somehow. Woops.
—–
Sarcastic, yes, but toward both sides of the argument.
1) A-scalers at higher level facilities aren’t making $50k/yr. I did a search around my home and there are several comfortably into the 6-figures who will keep a 100k+ lifestyle even after being hit by inflation for another presidential term. And, I’ll add, probably deservedly so. B-scale isn’t fair, I agree. It’s why I never returned the FAA’s phone call to come work at ZME after I blew a whole bunch of money on a CTI degree.
2) If you have money problems at $50k/yr, it’s not your income, it’s your money management. $50k/yr is higher than the median FAMILY income in 2/3 of the USA. My family happens to be dual income, but we could live on just one of those two (teachers don’t have it much sweeter than the FAA, my friends). Your argument that a newbie making $50k is in dire financial straits doesn’t reverberate with me, with the pols, or with the public I don’t think. Reframe your argument or it will continue to be a losing one.
3) If you’re so downtrodden by the man, why are almost every one of you and your union to boot supporting the platform of higher taxes and no guarantee of more pay? You will lose more! To your credit, though, you will be ideologically consistent because the rich (sorry folks, but that’s most of YOU!) will be paying their fair share.
August 26th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Hey, dummy!
Didn’t you get enough abuse the last time you posted that?
DisgruntledFlyer = TROLL
August 26th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Agreed Max. TROLL alert.
Sorry $50K in Memphis goes a little further than in Albuquerque or worse yet Oakland or XYZ city in Southern California. Sorry man I can not agree ANYONE can live comfortably here or in Oakland with a wife and a kid for $34K starting with rent averaging about $1K a month here or live in the slum… hmm lets see 12K in rent….leaves $22K then umm lets see taxes, maybe you get some rebate there I dunno probably not high on that then food, gas hopefully not a car payment, insurance. Dude I don’t know I can’t make that work and I KNOW several here are trying to do just that. I am not sure where you are getting $50K for a newbie, guy I never said that. That is the average new CPC pay, only a select “Lucky” few make the “Big” bucks like in ZAB $74K WOW!!! After 4 years of suffering trying to pay bills. You don’t reap the “Rewards” of that “Huge” salary any time soon because all the new people end up in debt to survive.
If you are so set at making a point to distort Facts then your argument is nothing. $34K to START BRO, not $50K.
I have to laugh that you wasted BIG money on a worthless CTI degree then rag on us for being rich? Your whole argument has to do with my pay when you where greedy enough to do anything to make the big bucks. Why else get a dead end degree? I really don’t get it? You go to college then decide not to take the job, I totally understand that, then you come to ATC sites and post inflammatory posts on them trying to talk down to the people you might have even worked with if you took the job. I call that a total nut job.
Very shortly most of the FAA will be all “B-scalers” and you call us rich still? Does not make sense, like a child slapping out for anything to hit. I have to say I Almost feel sorry for you, but I can’t stop giggling. Not because you got screwed, but because you got screwed and are trying to hurt others by being a jerk about it. Enough already let it go.
I won’t lie I do bring down the big bucks,but WAY too many where I work do not and next year there will be more of them than “us” left. So before you get your panties in a bunch most of the higher paid people would PREFER to get raises if our bosses do but can live without, but really all I want is a real contract and decent starting wages for the new hires. Higher starting wages means better (and more) recruits and happier people.
PS get the prozac or ritalin prescription refilled…….might help
August 26th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Note to all:
This evening, the FAA “disconnected” the map which shows massive delays, and also changed the website to delete all messages from the ATCSCC ADVZY system.
When news is bad= very, very bad= they go into “hide the information” mode.
Pitiful.
Our Management.
Afraid of the truth.
August 26th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Note to all:
This evening, the FAA “disconnected” the map ( which shows massive delays, and also changed the website to delete access to all messages from the real-time ATCSCC ADVZY system.
When news is bad= very, very bad= they go into “hide the information” mode.
Pitiful.
Our Management.
Afraid of the truth.
How typical.
August 26th, 2008 at 8:37 pm
>So yes, we don’t need them as “bosses.” As a taxpayer it’s appalling to pay somebody six figures for working traffic 4 hours A MONTH!!!<
Your FLeMs and OM’s work four hours a month? Wow, you are short staffed.
August 26th, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Retire as soon as you can! Let the ahole supes run the show. They do have a higher skill that justifies their higher pay,even if they only have 1 year experience as an fpl.I guess they didn’t want to get stuck losing money, like the people that actually do the job.
August 26th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
This is what they wrote in Computerworld Magazine the last time NADIN took a major dump. According to the article- they never figured out what went wrong:
From: From Computerworld, June 12, 2007
FAA still seeking cause of flight plan system shutdown
Computer problem on Friday caused flight delays, cancellations
Todd R. Weiss
June 12, 2007 (Computerworld) Investigators still don’t know what caused a computer system problem on Friday that shut down one of two systems used by the Federal Aviation Administration to distribute aircraft flight plans filed by pilots across the U.S.
Paul Takemoto, a spokesman for the FAA in Washington, said today that FAA technicians have been on the ground in Atlanta since the National Airspace Data Interchange Network (NADIN) unit shut down at 6:57 a.m., causing flight delays and cancellations that were exacerbated by strong thunderstorms on the East Coast. A second NADIN system, located in Salt Lake City, continued to operate when the Atlanta unit failed, but it was overwhelmed when systems operators switched the Atlanta workload over to process all flight plans for the entire country, he said.
The cause of the shutdown is still not known, Takemoto said. “They’re still running tests to find the problem. They’ve been in Atlanta since Friday and they’re going through everything to find the cause.”
There have been no further problems with Atlanta’s NADIN system since it was returned to service just before noon on Friday. It took almost another hour to get NADIN operating for the New York flight control area, but service was restored there at 12:48 p.m. that same day.
Residual delays and flight cancellations continued into the evening, but many of those flight problems and some 800 canceled flights were the result of severe thunderstorms that rocked much of the East Coast, he said.
NADIN is used to distribute flight plans filed by pilots before their planes depart, allowing air traffic controllers along the routes to know when planes are departing, where they are headed, the type of aircraft being flown, as well as other detailed information used to track and guide flights across U.S. airspace. The information appears on flight controllers’ screens so flights can be identified.
Data for any plane large or small, private or commercial, that files a flight plan is entered into the NADIN system, Takemoto said.
NADIN was developed in the early 1980s by a Dutch company, but is slated for replacement by October 2008 with a system being built in-house by the FAA, he said.
“There wasn’t any impact on safety,” Takemoto said, since the flight plan information was entered manually when the NADIN system was out of commission. The manual entry of the data was the cause of much of the delays, he said.
Tim Wagner, a spokesman for Forth Worth, Texas-based-American Airlines Inc., said his airline had about 88 flight cancellations on Friday because of the NADIN problems and bad weather. Passengers also experienced flight delays of one hour to 90 minutes, he said.
August 26th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
Disgruntled Flyer… I don’t know where in rural podunk USA you live, but $50k a year (before taxes of course) doesn’t go very far in a high cost of living area. Ever try to buy a house in SoCal on $50k a year? You can’t moron. So what you have now are a bunch of new controllers that have two or three part time jobs to get ahead or stay afloat. Is that really want you want? You want the controller vectoring your plane or your kid’s plane around dozens of other aircraft, mountains and thunderstorms after he’s just spent the previous 10 hours delivering pizzas or being a security guard at a strip mall? Does that make sense to you? Do you want a dissatisfied underpaid police officer responding to your 911 call at 3am? What about your heart surgeon? Should he get more than $50k a year, or should he be happy that he makes more than 2/3 of the country?
Further we ARE FORCED TO RETIRE AT AGE 56. Unlike the other 99% of the workforce we can’t work until we are 65 or 75, so we deserve to make more during a career that will be cut short by law. Hey I have to get ready for work now, but I’m sure you’ll see this tomorrow after you’ve had a good night’s sleep.
August 27th, 2008 at 4:18 am
Not trying to talk you down, I’m tryin to talk you into doing something other than bitch and moan. I did what I could by turning the FAA down, depriving the FAA of one of their supposed thousands in the hiring pool. Now they’re stuck hiring off of buses and craigslist, so I think I did my part. I’ve been writing my congresspeople since the end of 2005 urging fair negotiations. I would LOVE to work traffic, but I would hate everything else about your job. If the situation were fixed, I’d probably be at OKC the next day.
But like I said on TMB and here before, sitting around whining about the situation and putting all your hope in someone else to fix your problems isn’t a real solution.
August 27th, 2008 at 8:05 am
I don’t make 100k. I make $85k after 17 years in which is good money here. I am A scale for my facility. New people will make $50k. The problem is that I did take a pay cut. Used to earn about over $100 a pay period is CIC pay(controller in charge for non atc types)which they took away with the non-tract AND I haven’t had a pay raise in over 2 years. My bills have NOT been going down, just my pay. When I moved here 4 years ago I bought the best house in the best neighborhood I could afford just like anyone else would have in my shoes. Now my house is worth less and I am earning less to boot.
Why do we need so many sups??? The place runs better without them. We do the job while still controlling traffic, while they do the job while still playing minesweep. I guess the agency is tracking mindsweep scores like NATPRO and want to make sure they keep going up.
August 27th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
DisgruntledFlyer Says:
August 27th, 2008 at 4:18 am
“Not trying to talk you down, I’m tryin to talk you into doing something other than bitch and moan.”
Exactly WHAT would you propose any of us do? I feel I am doing my part, I give the supes hell every single day, problem is they could care less. Second part I am doing is leaving DAY ONE when I am eligible. Even the few that don’t retire I can’t fault them if they where planning on staying. Retiring is a personal choice and a big scary decision for anyone.
“But like I said on TMB and here before, sitting around whining about the situation and putting all your hope in someone else to fix your problems isn’t a real solution.”
Again I ask WHAT SHOULD WE DO? You make it sound like Harry Potter or some other fantasy story where we can wave a wand and “Fix” the problem OURSELVES. you are not in ATC and have all the solutions? Please enlighten us. You say you would be in OKC tomorrow if things where “Fixed” Exactly WTH does that mean? I will enlighten you some then. The FAA has always been screwy, you will NEVER find it “Fixed” just hopefully soon it will not be as screwed up. THAT is the best you could ever hope for.
Things you will never ever hear:
1. FAA management is in touch with what goes on in the field.
2. FAA management is FAIR
3. FAA management cares about its people
4. FAA management understands what its employees desire
5. FAA management is understaffed and underpaid
6. FAA management are made up of the best of the best of the best
7. FAA management is ahead of the game
8. You can trust the FAA management
9. The FAA management does the right thing even when nobody is watching
10. the FAA management would never waste the tax payers money
11. The FAA management is a productive group of people
12. FAA management teaches their members to lead by example (Or just lead)
13. FAA management treats others with respect
14. FAA management puts in a full days work for a full days pay
15. FAA management does more than the bare minimum to get by
and on and on and on
August 27th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
I have been in the FAA for about 4 Months now and quite early on I see and unhealthy culture of management that does not care about there employees and thier quality of life…Basically I have seen a “Work the Traffic and SHUT UP” atmosphere…”Do More for and with LESS”. NATCA needs to do there ****ing Job and fix this sh** NOW.
August 28th, 2008 at 7:17 am
” NATCA needs to do there ****ing Job and fix this sh** NOW.”
Mitch, it’s not quite that simple no matter what JTB says.
September 3rd, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Folks, I appreciate the job you all do and I wish they paid you what you’re worth. I’m going to do the only thing I can do – vote Obama. Bush is big business. I remember when the former NASA dude (sorry, forgot his name) took over and said he was going to run the FAA like a business. Good lord I saw this s–t coming.
Anyway, I appreciate what you do keeping my hide safe at KDVT.
Bug