Taking the Carr out for a drive
Posted by Paul Cox on March 6th, 2010
I’ve missed this kind of thing- a superb post at Don Brown’s “Get The Flick” for you to scope out…
The FAA Follies
All the FAA madness we could fit!
FAA News- Ways To Profit Off The Punchless Earl (KIE, PEJ, FAA) - Benzinga
- Stimulus funds for BWI projects help to keep workers employed - Washington Post
- CSC's Operational Transition for the FAA Hits Modernization Milestone - MarketWatch (press release)
- EMS air safety eyed after Arkansas accident - The Associated Press
- Continental, United lay out plan for merging FAA certificates - Dallas Morning News (blog)
- FAA- Air Traffic Control News
- Mistakes rise for area air traffic controllers - Washington Post
- CSC's Operational Transition for the FAA Hits Modernization Milestone - MarketWatch (press release)
- Stimulus funds for BWI projects help to keep workers employed - Washington Post
- New York LaGuardia Airport flights experiencing delays - Examiner.com
- Taxi into position and what? - Maryville Daily Times
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March 6th, 2010 at 9:31 am
I miss TMB and the unique style with which he writes.
March 6th, 2010 at 2:02 pm
I am so glad to read this. I have been livid with the amount of over the top reporting on this. I only differ with you on one point. I don’t think the guy even, necessarily, did something wrong. Yes, if it was really busy and he was goofing off, then it was wrong. Or if he plugged in and then walked away and left his kid in charge, then it was wrong. But telling your kid exactly what to say and then letting him speak the words, to me, is not a big deal. Should we do it on a daily basis? No. But I have heard airlines do the same thing when they have a kid on board for the make a wish foundation. The child was not controlling the traffic, he was doing the same thing that a brand new trainee just plugging into the position does, parroting what the instructor tells him to say and then hoping like hell he gets it right.
The part I am most concerned about though, is the anemic response from my union. If anyone should have stood up for the controller and explained to the general public why this is not as terrifying as everyone is making it out to be, is the organization that is paid to protect this controller. I am disappointed in my union family.
March 6th, 2010 at 4:26 pm
I am not disappointed in NATCA’s response. The thing to remember is there is a difference in PR in the media, and defending this controller from discipline from the faa.
Natca wants this story to go away. The sooner it is out of public view, the better it is for the controller. I am sure our union will vigorously defend this member.
25 years ago I saw exactly this same thing happen at least 12 times in ZNY. Nobody blinked an eye. Mary Peters was allowed to give clearances at SEA when a new RWY opened. It was against the same regulation that was broken here.
I really hope our union can help this guy keep his job and pension. From all reports he is a fine controller and upstanding union member. One small error in judgment should not wipe out all he has done over his career.
March 6th, 2010 at 11:41 pm
First off, I have two young children, and I am a NATCA member. That said,..in my opinion,.. NATCA members that defend these actions are damaging our profession. If we bitch and moan that it takes a certain personality, a certain aptitude, a certain 3 dimensional brain to do our jobs as controllers, and that we deserve to be paid more that what we are getting paid, and that we are the brain surgeons of the sky,.. etc, etc,….. don’t you think for ONE second that we should at least act the part??? Let me ask the rhetorical questions, Don. Did this guy and his kid compromise safety?? No. Did he make you, me, and every other PROFESSIONAL NATCA controller look bad? Yes he did. If we want the public to respect us, and if we want the people that decide our salary to take us seriously,.. then we need to ACT seriously. I could care less about how this makes the FAA look. Screw the FAA. As a NATCA member, I am pissed off that I pay dues to represent this knucklehead! By his selfish acts of letting his precious children talk on the microphone (at one of the busiest airports in the world no less) he has inadvertantly cost the entire (US) air traffic controller ranks millions. (Acts like these minimalize our jobs,. and respective salaries.) He has belittled our profession, and has made a mockery of the profession that is my livelyhood. As a NATCA member, I fight for the rights of my brethren when they have been wronged by their employer. This dumbass dug his own grave, and has embarassed our profession. NATCA needs to take a strong stand against this kind of behavior to uphold the professionalism we represent. If you want a $200K paycheck,.. then by god you better start acting like $200k talent !
March 7th, 2010 at 7:02 am
Most of the aviation related Blogs I read have weighed in on this issue. Its been an interesting cross section of viewpoints. The recent entry on “Get The Flick” is well written and makes some good observations. For my bottom line feelings on the matter; I’ll have to go with MGD64 – although at my age, a Budweiser Select 55 is even better for the waistline.
Several years ago, another controller and I were working a very busy satellite sector. It was two days before a major holiday and everyone was traveling. Weather was horrible, as is often the case when everyone has to travel. We released a small, twin-engine aircraft from one of the uncontrolled airports in our jurisdiction. Radar contact was established. The flight was issued a climb clearance and vectored toward his filed route. He never made it to his assigned altitude. The ARTS track froze, we lost radio contact and authorities eventually located another smoking hole.
Some months later, the other controller and I were summoned to a very fancy law office in the city. The family was planning on suing and we were being “deposed.” Entering the conference room, we were seated at a long table full of lawyers. They had every scrap of information (tapes, radar data, etc.) available on the case thus far. But they had yet to hear from the controllers involved. Oh, and seated directly across the table from us? The pilot’s widow, his parents and children. I can still see them.
For once; FAA appeared to be squeaky clean. We knew we’d done everything the right way but the hired guns who hosted us that morning were looking for something…ANYTHING so they could paint us with a broad brush of negligence, failure to comply with something/anything or just plain irresponsibility.
I can only imagine where this would all have gone if they had heard a child on our frequency telling the pilot to “Climb and maintain five thousand.” The FAA is always in the news and its rarely complimentary – like the kid controller at Kennedy. It sells newspapers. But when something really bad happens, be sure that someone out there will look for any small error in judgment and attempt (sometimes successfully) to morph it into something far more serious.
Don’t be concerned over what others do or have done. It doesn’t matter. Just do the right thing yourself.
March 7th, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Haven’t any of you, at times, done basically the same thing to newbie controllers? Wasn’t wrong then either.
They’re (FFA and whoever else) making way, way, way too much of nothing here.
MGD64, I am pissed that NATCA dues are being using to represent such an obnoxious ass as yourself by such mudslinging as you are doing here to a fellow NATCA member. Thanks for giving the FFA just what they are looking for.
Take a huge chill pill dude … you definitely need it.
March 7th, 2010 at 9:31 pm
Confession time:
I do not have a pilot’s license yet I have flown a PA28, C172, C206, C208, BE35, BL26 and a B737. Thanks for the stick time Dad (and one airline captain that shall remain nameless)!
I have let my kids drive my pick-up on some deserted country roads and let my nephews drive the pick-up through the fields as I picked up hay bales. Please don’t tell Social Services.
I have also let my kids parrot a few clearances on a mid-shift. I hope I haven’t denigrated the ATC profession too much by my actions.
If you want to chastise me for being a dumb-ass have at it.
Times have certainly changed. What madness!
Glad I am finished with the FAA.
Thanks for writing JTB. I miss you.
Kind Regards,
TW
March 8th, 2010 at 6:13 am
@MGD64
“Did this guy and his kid compromise safety?? No. Did he make you, me, and every other PROFESSIONAL NATCA controller look bad? Yes he did.”
So, if it’s all about image, maybe somebody should call Bruce Johnson and tell him the whole “business casual” thing wasn’t so far off the mark after all…
March 8th, 2010 at 8:13 am
It’s true that the controller looks bad. This is in part due to the inaction and shyness of the Union that represents him. The only people I’ve seen defending him on TV are airline pilots who know what the score is.
I agree that the Union’s interest is in getting this story out of the media but if there’s going to be a story, the Union should be asking to provide input.
It seems that “safety was never compromised” and the reaction of pilots on frequency (who’d be the first to die) was “how cute!”
March 8th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
oh Gee. here come the WHAT IFS. WHAT IF there was a crash?. WHAT IF something bad happens? WHAT IF the public doesn’t respect us. The pilots let alone the public really don’t understand what we really do.
Also, what makes you think we are looked at as Professionals anymore. Has Mgmt ever treated you as a Professional or was it more Prima Dona. Professional deteriated after PATCO and TRAIN to SUCCEED. Should it be a reminder to us all not to do that? yes. Was it really that big of deal. Guess so if you want to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Maybe next time he should write one of these new ATSAP reports to cover his ass
March 8th, 2010 at 10:05 pm
What happened to my post??!
March 9th, 2010 at 6:26 am
I agree with Crude-
MGD64-Take a pill and a big one so you can choke on it!! And I doubt if the majority of the guys at JFK make 200K!
The point you make is about $$$ not about the brotherhood or profession! Sounds like you’d backstab a brother in a heartbeat. You make me sick!!
March 10th, 2010 at 10:20 am
You guys are missing MCD64′s point.
What needs to be asked is: In the eyes of the public, was safety compromised? The answer is YES.
In the eyes of the public, was professionalism maintained? The answer is NO.
Controllers have always tried to convince themselves that they are professionals. And here is what has always been the problem in doing that: You can not just call yourself a professional. The public decides who is a professional. And it should be obvious by now, that the public DOES NOT think that Air Traffic Controllers are professionals. The public is of the opinion that anyone can be an Air Traffic Controller. And you know what? They are right. Look around the next time you are at work.
Mr. MGD64 is right. This guy has made a mockery of our job. And any headway that we made after Marion has been wiped out. He (JFK ATC) should not be fired, he should be shot for doing this to us and our beloved “profession”.
Keep this in mind before you blow a gasket over my post: An Air Traffic Controller hires on at $34,000. A mail carrier starts at $40,000. THAT is what the public thinks of ATC.
March 10th, 2010 at 5:03 pm
The public does’nt know squat about what our job entails. They only know what the news media and the agency tells them. I have looked around me and I see that the high standards that were expected in the past have dropped. There was a time of a high wash out rate at okc academy. The only ones that have made a mockery of our job is the FAA itself. How many supes do you know anymore that can slide you over and show you how to do the job.
March 11th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
Alert-
The FAA Reauthorization bill is now on the Senate floor.
C-SPAN 2 has coverage.
March 12th, 2010 at 10:59 pm
Price, I was right along with you, up until the part about him being “shot”. A little extreme, even by my standards. I don’t think he should be fired either. A week or two unpaid vacation might be appropriate. But, apparently my viewpoint is a little unpopular, to say the least. So here we are comparing what this guy at JFK did, to a loving dad letting their kid drive a pickup through a farm field. A pilot letting their kid hold the yoke of an airplane ?? (Apples and oranges.) I apologize if I “attacked” a fellow union “brother”. I forgot how sensitive our membership can be.. but you are missing my point completely. WE, as controllers, are fighting to regain the respect and confidence of millions of people. Not only the respect of people on Capitol Hill that decide our salary, but the people that live across the street from you and I that ask,.. ” what was that little kid doing talking to airplanes?” What’s your answer? How do you defend that and make yourself look like you deserve a 6 figure income? This incident in and of itself is not that big of a deal. But it’s incidents like this that add up, and (on the surface) degrade the importance of our job. For those of you too blind to understand,.. Your union is fighting for you to live a better life. Your employer is trying to get the most out of you for the least amount of money. Incidents like this DO NOT help the unions’ case in demonstrating how valuable you are. It adds to the Blakey mind set that we are nothing more than baggage handlers. Now they can add to their list of insults,.. “any 6 year old can do this job.”
March 13th, 2010 at 5:20 am
“any 6 year old can do this job.”
As long as an expierenced controller is telling them what to say.
March 13th, 2010 at 7:18 am
“…incidents like this…”
It irks me to hear broad, all-encompassing claims spewed as facts to support an argument/make a point. What other incidents? What other episodes have come to the public eye that puts controllers in a bad light?
$200K? Who is this…Mica? Only controllers I know of getting close to that are the folks at Socal forced to work 6 day weeks and 10 hour days due to the heavy handed managers that screwed up staffing numbers during Bush/Blakey/Chew. Screw the controllers, then bitch about how much you gotta pay them. Typical.
March 14th, 2010 at 1:08 am
…WE, as controllers, are fighting to regain the respect and confidence of millions of people. Not only the respect of people on Capitol Hill that decide our salary, but the people that live across the street from you and I that ask,.. ” what was that little kid doing talking to airplanes?…
Can you tell me WHEN we lost the respect and confidence of millions of people? I know a lot of people who know a lot of people and they all fly. They love controllers. We have lost nothing. This whole incident went viral, and out of control. The controller should get nothing more than a written admonishment. He will not do it again.
Incident over, move along.
March 14th, 2010 at 3:20 am
It’s quite hilarious to see NATCA members(yes I am one)now saying EXACTLY the same thing as FAA management says when they screw up. “The controller was sitting right there next to his child and told him exactly what to say, so ‘safety was never compromised’!” MGD64 is exactly right with the points he/she made and I’ll add one more. The controller in the incident should be sent to the beach for two weeks and he and his kids can play air traffic control all they want to in the sand where nobody can actually die from his stupidity.
March 14th, 2010 at 1:54 pm
You want to take two weeks of pay out of a union brother’s pocket Charles ? I’m hoping for an LOR.
March 15th, 2010 at 3:31 am
“nobody can actually die from his stupidity”
Who died?
March 17th, 2010 at 9:59 am
Did you see the video of the teabaggers mocking the sick man. Holy smokes, what is wrong with those teabaggers?
March 22nd, 2010 at 11:23 am
I am not a parent nor a controller, but it seems that supervising a child and supervising the nation’s airspace are mutually exclusive. As a parent, you are directly responsible for the welfare of your child. As an air traffic controller, you are directly responsible for the welfare of hundreds or thousands of people flying in little aluminum shells far above the ground.
I was under the impression that the stress of the job is tied up, at least in part, in the fact that a momentary mental lapse at the exact wrong time can spell doom for hundreds of other people. How do we reconcile splitting the focus of a controller (not who is giving a tour, but who is actively on duty) between two things, both of which deserve top priority in other circumstances? It appears to be a conflict of interest. I don’t see the problem with a controller coming in and showing a child around while he is off-duty and not controlling traffic. I do not see the wisdom in allowing controllers to babysit while they are on duty. If I’m missing something here then please enlighten me, because those of us who work for the FAA get asked about this even if we aren’t controllers.
March 22nd, 2010 at 8:39 pm
I am a parent but not a controller, and being responsible for the welfare of a child doesn’t mean that you have to watch them intently every second. Nor does it mean you can’t do something else – like watch TV or read a book – when a kid is quietly playing by themselves in the same room.
I’ve been reading pretty much all the ATC blogs for 5 or 6 years and it’s clear that while there are lots of times when a controller is very busy with lots of planes, there are other times when things are not so hectic. In this case, both the controller and the supervisor felt the amount of traffic was low enough that the extra time spent relaying information through the kid was not dangerous.
March 23rd, 2010 at 4:23 am
“As an air traffic controller, you are directly responsible for the welfare of hundreds or thousands of people flying in little aluminum shells far above the ground.”
If JetBlue or any other aircraft of frequency reported an emergency of some type you would not have heard that little voice again.
March 23rd, 2010 at 4:25 am
on…not of, I guess I need new glasses.
March 23rd, 2010 at 11:48 am
What’s wrong with you guys? This is our job, our “profession”. What this guy did is WRONG. It doesn’t matter who he let transmit. His son, his daughter, his neighbor, his brother-in-law. It doesn’t matter, any of those choices are WRONG. What he did is unprofessional and unsafe.
While this stupidity was going on, every eye and every ear in the cab was focused on that child. Everyone was distracted. As a “controller”, you would either think that it was cute, or you would think that it was outrageous. But you were watching. And that took you away from your job.
The fact that a fellow controller would think that this is acceptable just baffles me. But it does do one thing for me. It proves to me how awry this “profession” has gone.
March 23rd, 2010 at 3:49 pm
Turn the radio off. It’s distracting me
March 23rd, 2010 at 4:56 pm
Price…dude…
I gotta figure you weren’t around pre-9-11. We got stuck giving everybody and his cousin a fricken tour back then. Where? ZAU. We gave tours to boy scouts, girl scouts, inner city kids, old folks from wherever, church groups, random parent pop-ups, military reservists, on top of the usual bring your kid to work day.
I don’t know what your facility is…doesn’t matter. WE knew what the workload was, and if the timing wasn’t right, no tour folks were put at that sector. If it was slow/routine then here they come. Nobody gave us a briefing on what to do during a tour, the presentation of info was left to the discretion of the controller at the sector. It was easier to let a tour person say hi to an aircraft on the frequency than try to explain the NAS, sector boundaries, SOPs, LOAs, etc. Nobody died. Nobody crashed. Relax.
It takes a special person to be as controller. And we know when to be “routine” and when you gotta go to 2nd or 3rd gear. The tower episode was routine. This was not something to get fluffed up like a gamecock over. Learn to pick important topics to get flabbergasted over……this was not one of them.
March 23rd, 2010 at 5:36 pm
Was it unsafe? No. Was it dumb? Yes. This is 2010, everything we do and say is streamed online and be sent around the globe in minutes. Regardless of what the small ATC communit y thinks many of the public thought it was irresponsible. It’s hard to get public sympathy when we do things like this. NATCA should defend its members against unfair work rules, contract violations, unsafe working condtions, harassment and intimidation but it’s NOT a union’s job to defend every dumbass thing a controller does. When that happens the union loses credibility.
March 25th, 2010 at 8:34 am
I really don’t like his blog because he does not allow comments. These blogs are about being able to freely express an opinon for the blogger and that is great. However comments and bright so much more to a post. Comments make the reader feel like this is a forum for discussion and not just an editorial rant. Many opinion pieces in major papers now allow comments and as we all can agree the comments sometimes make an otherwise dull read interesting because of the different reads brought in.
Yes I miss TMB too because of the lively and interesting read. I may not have agreed with John some of the times but it was a two way dialog that I am missing.
March 25th, 2010 at 8:38 am
Now since this blog is where we choose to comment on the ATC event I will weight in. Everybody in this industry is supposed to be professionals. We demand professional pay for what we do. Then we need to ask ourselves: As much as we love our kids, do we really think it was professional behavior to allow this to happen.
March 25th, 2010 at 5:45 pm
And your comment about not allowing comments was camment #32. Forgive me if I disregard your opinion.
March 26th, 2010 at 1:25 am
I think comment #32 was in reference to Don Brown’s blog, where the JTB piece first appeared. Don doesn’t have a comments section, but I think he’s well worth reading anyway.
“While this stupidity was going on, every eye and every ear in the cab was focused on that child. Everyone was distracted. As a “controller”, you would either think that it was cute, or you would think that it was outrageous. But you were watching. And that took you away from your job.
The fact that a fellow controller would think that this is acceptable just baffles me. But it does do one thing for me. It proves to me how awry this “profession” has gone.”
It’s funny–in the very first discussion Mrs. Husband of an ATC and I had, on the day the story broke, she made the point that every other person in that tower was more than likely being *extra* vigilant to what was going on outside the windows while the kid was plugged in. To use PNSHD’s terms, everybody else had already gone into 2nd gear. Maybe she, and the guys at JFK, are used to a higher standard of professionalism than those who are so ready to criticize?
April 8th, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Sure miss your blog … (and JTB’s, the TPCAU, and the others…)
Nothing to write about these days?
April 17th, 2010 at 10:52 am
I am still waiting to hear why anyone would take a supe job during the IWR’s. ……and the controllers who voted for Bush TWICE. I really don’t know which one is dumber.
April 21st, 2010 at 8:39 pm
SPJ……why do you care so much about what they did? Get over it and move on. Life is too short to hang on to this. We all learn from the past, we just need to move forward…..my cents, from a Buddhist…..
April 21st, 2010 at 10:40 pm
#35 I am happy to hear you are at home. You are NOT a controller and you’re criticism of an Air Traffic Controller is out of line. Stay home, cook the breakfast and let us move the traffic.
JB
April 22nd, 2010 at 2:43 am
JB,
Re-read the post. Any of it that was critical was quoted from Price’s post, #28. The little quotation mark thingies are a clue. (It appears that punctuation isn’t your strong suit anyway.)
What *I* said was entirely supportive of all those controllers who understand that this was no big deal, and in opposition to any who say that, if you believe it was no big deal, that makes *you* unprofessional as well.
Maybe we should trade places? Can you cook bacon without burning it?
April 22nd, 2010 at 6:12 am
#38 , I care because what THEY did affected every single controller. Many controllers retired because of the IWR’s and we sure could use them back right now. Instead , I am working 6 days a week with no end in sight.
So please tell me what THEY have learned.
My guess is that you are one of them.
April 22nd, 2010 at 7:17 am
If that is what you think, then I can’t blame you for wanting to know. I believe it is not their fault, I fault the FAA for not thinking ahead. Should have been hiring like crazy, but they didn’t. Yes, I wish all the controllers that had retired return as well. But they made the decision and we have to live with it. And until the FAA gets off their ass and does something about it, we will all suffer. I just go with the flow and take it one day at a time and try to not let it bother me. I am too young to have ulcers thinking about why somebody did something. Just my two cents worth………
April 22nd, 2010 at 7:28 am
You are kidding right ?
Not their fault ?????? Had Bush not been “re-elected” we would not have had the IWR’s and the mass exodus by veteran controllers would not have occurred. The FAA DID hire thousands of controllers. the problem was/is they did not hire the right ones nor did they pay them. Another casualty of the IWR’s. Again, please tell me what they have learned.
Here is a prediction for you……..the FAA is just 1 Republican president from being contracted out.
April 22nd, 2010 at 7:46 am
We can sit here and play Monday morning quarterback and hind sight is 20/20, etc. Did they learn anything??? probably not…..Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I have no qualms with yours. I am just saying what can be done now??? I don’t have an answer and I’m sure that the higher ups don’t have one either. The pendulum will always swing one way or the other and will never be in the middle where it should be.
April 22nd, 2010 at 8:23 am
I am not playing Monday morning quarterback. NATCA knew exactly what would happen if “W” was re-elected and they told the membership so. YET, many controllers still voted for that idiot as they did for McCain. Your statement is correct…they did not learn a thing. They will learn when they lose their pension after being contracted out to LM or Boeing…..awww hell, they will probably just blame NATCA.
The higher ups don’t give a **** about a “plan” for the future. Most of them can retire and will. They will show up working for LM or Boeing as your boss. You think the IWRs were bad ? wait until there is nothing to protect the controllers. Just ask any of the FSS guys.
April 22nd, 2010 at 2:35 pm
“Mass exodus?” Didn’t really happen. Initial surge, then numbers below the FFA’s predictions. Money talked. Greed (not blaming anyone that stayed) won.
April 23rd, 2010 at 5:46 am
OH really ? tell that to the controllers at SCT who are working 6 days a week and have been for many years.
You are correct in saying “greed won” but that is no surprise when you take in to account where these people came from . You remember the PATCO strike ? These are the same scabs that crossed the line. Greed is their middle name and in the end will be their demise.
April 23rd, 2010 at 9:25 pm
Do I remember? I was one of the scabs (at PVW-poor excuse for an ATC facility, I’ll be the first to admit. But hey, at least in ’80 one started low and learned a bit before moving up). There are very, very few still at D10 (1 or 2 maybe, not me) that “crossed the line.” The line was long gone when most getting the extra bucks were hired. I do not discount the fact that SCT is still working lots of OT. We had a dose of it, too (just not to that degree). The groundwork for that was set up long, long before ’06.
August 2nd, 2010 at 9:53 am
SCT does not work any OT.
August 7th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
Hey Pinky, thats funny because I just worked another OT just last week in the arrival area.
Do you pay dues ?
August 9th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
Stinky, Just got done working another OT today.
August 11th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
Judging by the time of your post, it must have been a mid. C’mon, be honest, you probably slept for at least 5 hrs.
August 12th, 2010 at 5:39 am
Stinky says “SCT does not work any OT ”
That is 100% false.
I say again, do you pay NATCA dues ?
August 12th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
Ahhh, so it was a mid o/t. Atta boy, you do the profession proud. However you need to brush your teeth more often, according to you co-workers.
August 12th, 2010 at 2:30 pm
so you don’t pay dues . That is all I need to know. By the way, I will find out your true identity.
For the record. It was a day shift IDIOT !