Golden Opportunity… lost
Posted by Paul Cox on January 8th, 2010
So the airline and aviation industry has been taking it- POW- right on the chin lately. The fuel price shock, when oil rose to around 150 bucks a barrel in 2008, and then the economic downturn have added up to most of the airlines scrambling to cut capacity and farm out their operations as much as possible.
Looking at everything through a negative mindset isn’t smart, though, and one thing that this does offer us is a tremendous chance to catch up and get ahead of the power curve in one big area- air traffic controller staffing.
Sadly, the FAA is blowing their golden opportunity.
A quick history- about 4 years ago, controllers started retiring en masse. Angry at pay cuts, the lack of a negotiated contract, and the general treatment of FAA employees, they started walking away from their jobs in the biggest numbers seen in three or more decades.
The FAA scrambled to hire replacements. The agency thought it wasn’t going to have a problem, since they had over 3,000 people on their list of eligible-to-be-hired graduates of college ATC programs; unfortunately, it turns out that those college graduates knew how to read. They had kept up with the fact that the FAA had slashed pay over 30% and was treating their new hires like something you’d scrape off the bottom of your shoe.
They read reports from their fellow new hires about FAA officials going to Oklahoma City and telling the ATC trainees at the Academy (most of whom were making poverty-level wages and not getting per diem while living temporarily in a city hundreds or even thousands of miles away from home or their final permanent duty station) that they were lucky to have a job and if they didn’t like how things were going, they could just quit.
And guess what? Many of those 3,000+ college kids told the FAA to stuff it and didn’t even bother applying for the job.
The FAA then turned to hiring ex-military controllers, but there’s only so many of those, so the geniuses in charge started hiring people straight “off the street” to be controllers. Nothing wrong with OTS hires (I’m one!) but what this meant was that the college graduates who DID apply and get hired were now pissed off, because they’d spent tens of thousands of dollars on the FAA’s word that doing so was the only way they could be eligible for a controller job.
So now you’ve got an incoming workforce that’s being treated like crap who’re also angry from being lied to, and you’ve got a bunch of experienced guys who’re so disgusted that they’re retiring in droves.
And since the FAA wasn’t hiring a trainee until the journeyman controller actually left the job, and since it takes anywhere from 1 to 4 years to be fully trained, and since a significant portion of those trainees would go on to wind up washing out of training, we wound up with a staffing shortage.
We’re still critically short of controllers in some facilities, but as I said, traffic levels are down, down, down.
And that, folks, is the golden opportunity. If the fuel price shock and economy tanking hadn’t happened, we’d be utterly screwed right now from a lack of qualified controllers.
Instead, we’ve got a nice little chance to reverse the errors of the immediate past. We can keep hiring lots of new trainees and do a good job of getting them through the program. We know massive numbers of our workforce are eligible to retire in the next several years (6 years, 3 days for me, but who’s counting?) and it would make perfect sense to hire their replacements NOW, ahead of time, so we don’t fall behind like we did before.
Right? Right?
Naturally, that’s not what the FAA is doing. Instead, I’m hearing stories of the FAA contacting people just a week or three prior to their academy reporting date, telling them that they’re not going to be hired after all. (This after the folks have made all the necessary arrangements to quit their jobs, move out of their place, and trek off to the middle of the country for several months for initial training.)
At Seattle Center we’ve been told we saw our planned incoming student number for 2010 go from being 40, to 20, to 10, and now it’s down to just 2 people.
And this is happening nation-wide. The FAA, rather than being smart and getting ahead of the problem, is scaling back hiring dramatically.
We’re blowing an awesome chance, a golden opportunity, to finally fix the ATC staffing issue.
January 8th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
There’s no money left for training. Academy instructors are being laid off, and facility instructors hours are being cut by 30%.
Until the FAA Reauthorization Bill is passed in Congress, you will see further cuts.
January 8th, 2010 at 4:48 pm
Meanwhile, we have how many new management types over 170K?
January 8th, 2010 at 5:31 pm
And I’m sure it is all being blamed on NATCA.
January 8th, 2010 at 7:46 pm
NATCA has a “Golden Opportunity” right now. take out full page adds in USA Today and start exposing FAA management for who and what they really are. Put out the ratios and let the public put pressure on the FAA.
Take away all seniority for anyone who even bids a job outside the BU. Document everything on your FLM and make life miserable for them. NOW is the time so lets go out and TAKE IT !!!!
January 8th, 2010 at 8:13 pm
“make life miserable for them.”
Weren’t you complaining about that happening to controllers a few months ago?
January 8th, 2010 at 9:18 pm
[...] The FAA Follies » Blog Archive [...]
January 9th, 2010 at 12:44 am
I am an ex military controller who applied over a year ago, and received my tentative offer in February. I was told to wait until fiscal year 2010 came before I could be assigned a date. Well it came and went and now I am being told to wait until fiscal year 2011. I try not to bitch too much because I lucked out and got a job in the middle east working ATC, but being away from my family for over a year sucks. And what about the ones that don’t have a job to bridge the gap? Keep up the good work on the blog Mr Cox, it’s a great read!
January 9th, 2010 at 1:28 am
Our facility started with college grads, military controllers and CFIs to all OTS hires. Out of the eight OTS we have maybe two will make it, the others are all dim (putting it nicely) and have no business setting foot in any ATC facility. Good work weeding out the dumbasses FAA!
January 9th, 2010 at 1:59 am
The FAA had the same opportunity in in 2001 after 9/11. They blew it then. Why would you think they would learn from past mistakes?
” I walk through the jungle with my scope in my hand, I’m a mean mo-fo I’m a radarman!”
January 9th, 2010 at 6:35 am
No money left after the party in Atlanta.
January 9th, 2010 at 7:00 am
Faa Guy (FLM), And your point is ????????
January 9th, 2010 at 7:39 am
It was a question.
January 9th, 2010 at 7:43 am
Judging by my center, I’d say the FAA is handling it correctly. At the moment we are way overstaffed. Does it really make sense to hire a bunch more people when some now are only plugging in for 2 1/2 hours a day? Be careful when you start talking about how many people are eligible to retire. There is a big difference. I’m eligible but will probably work at least 5 more years. We have a lot of controllers eligible and not many are leaving.
January 9th, 2010 at 8:56 am
I believe the FAA Administrator this week told Congress he had all the money and controllers he needed.
As for the cutbacks the FAA is blaming it on the new contract. As for a bubble of employees Eacta is talking about that may be true at some facilities. The truth is the FAA will be facing a loss of employees over the next five years that will most definetly eat up the present bubble. Then guess what? Another fire drill by the FAA to try to catch up again. The plan before the last few weeks would have avoided that scenario. Yes flush with controllers for a period just like we were hanging by a thread several years ago. The FAA is like a yo yo dieter. The first sign of sucess that fall off the wagon in celebration.
January 9th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
Speaking of “Golden Opportunities”:
Saturday, January 9, 2010
Florida Congressman John Luigi Mica’s Daughter Charged With DUI.
http://www.wesh.com/news/22193028/detail.html
With A Father Like John Luigi Mica – You’d Drink, Too.
http://indictsturgell.blogspot.com/2010/01/with-face-like-that-and-with-father.html
January 9th, 2010 at 5:24 pm
When will our senior leadership understand that we can’t count new trainees as controllers in the “air traffic controller workforce plan.” So, we met our goal for hiring “controllers” for last year, but most of those are trainees, and many will never get certified.
January 9th, 2010 at 8:01 pm
“When will our senior leadership understand”
Now there’s a question!
January 9th, 2010 at 8:18 pm
BRUTUS Said:
“There’s no money left for training. Academy instructors are being laid off, and facility instructors hours are being cut by 30%. Until the FAA Reauthorization Bill is passed in Congress, you will see further cuts.”
It is obvious that BRUTUS doesn’t know how the FAA gets funded.
Currently, the FAA is operating under a “continuing resolution” at least through March, and that means that it continues with the same funding as last year. The FAA is NOT running low on money at this point, and don’t believe anyone who tells you that it is.
Hint: Watch the internal FAA politics. You will learn much more about the truth than listening to bad rumours.
.
January 9th, 2010 at 9:05 pm
Dale,
I don’t listen to rumors, and I don’t start them.
Fact is as I stated: Academy instructors are being laid off, and field facility instructors work hours have been cut by 30%.
January 9th, 2010 at 9:20 pm
Another fact: the continuing resolution doesn’t allow for “back filling” personnel to cover expected losses this FY.
Maybe you heard about the hiring freeze for ATC?
January 10th, 2010 at 12:47 am
Brutus,
Check your facts, you have no clue what you are talking about. Please state the law that verifies your supposed “Fact” That’s right, because you can’t!
Fact is that FAA is dropping the ball on yet another project that is supposedly on schedule and on time.
Let’s see, we can’t spend money on hiring or a failed training contract, yet we can spend tens of millions OVER budget on ERAM????? Ohhh, excuse me let me clear my throat, sorry you must be a Blakey hold over. ON BUDGET AND ON TIME on everything all the time. Re-baselining is your friend.
BTW, Bubba. Just stating something as “FACT” does not make it so. Keep dreaming that the Republicans are coming to save the day and the glory (HOLE) days of telling lies and having people believe them are back again.
Move along Brutalus, you have been run over by the MACK truck of reality.
January 10th, 2010 at 1:02 am
Brutus,
One more “Fact” continuing resolution means just that, you CONTINUE, Get that? Do you really get it? You continue funding.
The trainers in the field are not training “Back fill” as you call it. They are suppose to continue the workload they have. So if your lie was true they would CONTINUE to train at full levels in the field and STOP training at the academy for new hires (By not hiring new hires). The FAA is not hiring because they are stupid, not because of the continuing resolution (Otherwise we would have stopped hiring several of the other times we have been in the continuing resolution (We DID NOT THEN, again another proof that you are WRONG ON YOUR FACTS) If you where really right we would have stopped hiring YEARS ago.
You have to be one of those office pukes or management tools that take what is told to you hook, line and sinker without even taking a second to think about it.
Again, listen to what I am saying, we have BEEN working under a continuing resolution for a long time, its not too hard of a concept to follow. ohh geesh, never mind, you can’t fix stupid, which you apparently are. That’s right the mack truck of reality just backed over you.
January 10th, 2010 at 4:48 am
LUGNUT…Back away from the pipe, your hair is on fire!
January 10th, 2010 at 5:59 am
“Meanwhile, we have how many new management types over 170K?”
About half of those assigned to my faciity….30 or so out of a total of 60 in the higher skill set. We have about 12 more MSS 2 or higher ATC types then we did four years ago. Less traffic, fewer CPCs, but more “managers”, performing a variety of manufactured tasks, many of them superfluous to even the untrained eye. The disconnect between management and the BU couldn’t be more apparent. Yea, FAA has new marching orders, but they go about their “business” in the same old way. And the controller staffing at my facility would be a much easier nut to crack, if FAA would stop stealing controllers out of the BU and “promoting” them in to management.
January 10th, 2010 at 6:23 am
BRUTUS Said:
“Dale,
I don’t listen to rumors, and I don’t start them.
Fact is as I stated: Academy instructors are being laid off, and field facility instructors work hours have been cut by 30%.”
You might not listen to or start rumors, however, you are spreading one right now.
True, Raytheon instructors are being laid off. However, it is NOT because of budget.
Rather, it is because of a contract dispute between the FAA and Raytheon. Raytheon low-bid the contract expecting the FAA to pony up some more money when Raytheon created a crisis, and the FAA called their bluff. Calling that bluff is a VERY unusual move for the FAA, and I haven’t been able to determine the why of it.
January 10th, 2010 at 6:37 am
BRUTUS Said:
“Another fact: the continuing resolution doesn’t allow for “back filling” personnel to cover expected losses this FY. Maybe you heard about the hiring freeze for ATC?”
There you go, mixing apples and oranges and trying to apply them to budget.
The FAA already has budget for personel compensation regardless of any position being filled at any given time. Back filling a position that becomes vacant (for whatever reason) does not obligate any more money than what the FAA has already given by Congress. The only effect is that the FAA does not get a “windfall” that leaving a position open would create.
As for the hiring freeze for ATC, if it is a budget issue, then why are other lines of business still hiring?
The FAA has been working under a continuing resolution since FY-2007 ended. Congress has been either unwilling or unable to pass a budget for the FAA since the FY-2007 budget was passed. If working under a continuing resolution generates a fiscal crisis, then how has the FAA been operating (and hiring ATC’s) for the last 2 1/2 years?
You might also listen to Zabnut about some of the issues. Zabnut may flame from time to time, but there seems to be some valid perception behind those flames.
January 10th, 2010 at 7:07 am
Brutus and Dale:
The FAA isn’t under a continuing resolution. The new budget was signed into law as Public Law 111-117 just before Christmas. It’s a full year appropriation bill. Go check Thomas and you’ll see HR 3288 became Public Law 111-117. The FAA has it’s full budget money now for FY-2010.
January 10th, 2010 at 7:13 am
I’ve got to agree with “Vector”. The quality of people we have seen hired over the past 2 to 3 years has taken a turn for the worse. “Dim” is puting it nicely. We are spinning our wheels trying to train and certify people that I wouldn’t trust to run a cash register at Wal-Mart. If and when the traffic picks back up, ohh man,.. let the delays begin.
January 10th, 2010 at 10:23 am
Thank you, Showers. I missed seeing the budget passing. GPO still hasn’t published this law yet.
Passing of the budget just further reinforces my arguement that the issues are not due to budget problems.
January 10th, 2010 at 10:30 am
Aluminum Showers,
I honestly never cared to check, I has somehow thought we had something passed. Thanks for looking that up. I just knew that Brutus was flat out wrong on many levels.
Demoralized,
I hear you, loud and clear. We are hurting to no end at ZAB also. I would like to mention that not all of the new hires lately have been bad, but the average is no better than you going to your local bar, mall or walmart and picking random people out of the crowd. (I say walmart ect, because I dare say, if we went to a college or a military facility and got MOTIVATED people our success rate would be closer to 75% maybe 95%, but instead we got a telemarketer, verizon sales, home maker that had nothing better to do, manufacturer line worker and dozens of $10 and hour type people. I wish I was kidding but I am not. I remember asking a new person what they did before and getting a laundry list of things, 4 years of college, military controller for X years. Oh that’s nice. Now I get, I used to deliver pizzas, or I used to work at Chilli’s. I heard enough of that so I just don’t ask, I just look at their best buy and Arby’s shirts they wear when they come to work and figure that out all by myself. Geesh.
I agree, when traffic picks up, things will turn south REAL quickly. We have had more near mid-airs in the past 24 months than I have seen the rest of my career. One was about 100 feet and about a mile and the other was called a NONOCCURRENCE, where the pilot report a “windshield full” of a C130. We keep rolling the dice and eventually it will come up snake-eyes.
January 10th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
There would be nothing wrong with taking people off the street if we still had the screen. I knew people that were military controllers that didn’t pass, and by the skin of their teeth high school grads that did great. It makes sense to wash out 40% in 3 months instead of making us do it in 3 years with people that are now our friends. The FAAs way of handling this problem is to cut the hours of the Raytheon people we have helping, and dumping more in the laps of the controllers.
January 10th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
Raytheon’s contract for 2008-2009 was originally 144 mil later increased to about 180 mil. I am guessing the increase was for the additional ERAM training requirements. Not sure about that though. None the less the FAA for 2009-2010 cut the Raytheon budget to 109 mil. The reason given was to provide for the increase caused by the new controller contract. The FAA also reduced the number of new hires for 2009-2010. I don’t know the exact numbers but it was a huge drop from the original plan. IMO the FAA appears to be slashing items like this in an effort to make the current Obama administration look bad down the road for the NATCA contract. They still have room for a 5+ mil party in Atlanta for managers and who knows what else is going own.
January 10th, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Has anybody run the numbers to see what a 3 year pay freeze for management would generate in terms of additional money in the coffers that we could then apply towards training? I’m curious why we’re not working this angle?
Kevin g
zmp
January 10th, 2010 at 11:24 pm
There is nothing wrong with OTS hires per se. The problem is that there is no screen anymore, anybody with an IQ above 55 passes and leaves the washing out to the respective facility. This experiment is a huge waste of money and resources.
January 11th, 2010 at 6:42 am
Vector is 100% correct,back in the 80s the FFA ran a screen that may not have taught ATC but it did weed out a lot of turds with a 50% wash out rate, now that joke they call a screen is what passing 95% or better?this is more of that famous train to succeed **** that came out in the 90s.i cant wait to see what will happen to these nubees when the traffic picks up.
January 11th, 2010 at 8:02 am
27+WearingSneakers Says:
January 10th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
There would be nothing wrong with taking people off the street if we still had the screen. I knew people that were military controllers that didn’t pass, and by the skin of their teeth high school grads that did great. It makes sense to wash out 40% in 3 months instead of making us do it in 3 years with people that are now our friends. The FAAs way of handling this problem is to cut the hours of the Raytheon people we have helping, and dumping more in the laps of the controllers.
Best post of the bunch! BRING BACK THE FRIGGIN SCREEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In my Academy class in 82, we had Middle School Principles washing out, we had ex-military controllers washing out, we had plain jane off the street washing out. Key is they SCREENED the folks who just might MAKE IT in the field. That ain’t happening now and the FAA is just starting to pay for it. Aweful controllers are bidding FLM jobs to avoid the scopes and towers and that is our future management workforce.
BRING BACK THE SCREEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
January 11th, 2010 at 9:20 am
Part of what Exacta sez might be true. Though I don’t feel the FFA handled it correctly, they may luck in to their hiring “model” being successful. After 2006 there was a burst of retirements. My impression is that has really leveled off, and actual retirements are less than predicted. In 2008, many controllers at D10 threatened to retire, but when the pot was sweetened (retention bonuses) none did. (Truth is, none of them would’ve retired even without the money.) Training differential is adding to everyone’s take. Many held out hoping to be made whole by the new administration (which didn’t work out quite as well). Even that didn’t create enough of a sense of loss to motivate an outflux January 2. The most experienced controllers are staying longer, training their replacements. Many are eligible, but money talks.
January 11th, 2010 at 9:49 am
“Many are eligible, but money talks”
You got that right ! At SCT,during the IWR’s, several veterans retired in protest. Blakey offers $$$ for controllers to transfer to SCT and they snatched it up. Some of them NATCA officers. Hell, we even had 3 retired people beg to come back for 30 something an hour. Then we had many people sucking up OT like a two bit HO !
Throw in all the kiss asses going to management (steve Merlin ( ex facility rep) and you have little or no solidarity. Please tell me again how stong my union is.
January 11th, 2010 at 10:13 am
Good question Kevin. The Blakey/Mica fear mongers said no technical advances/equipment was coming because the controllers salaries were bleeding the agency dry. So WE got our pay frozen. But the cash waterfall just kept running for management, with raises and bonuses for the people that answer the phone, get current at 6 AM on a Sunday, and can’t give a straight answer to a basic question without having to ask the AMIC. Want $$$ for the training contracters? Give 70% of the FLMs a choice…back to the boards or out the door. Get rid of the needless position of FLM on the boards and use a CIC and AMICs walking the platform. If a controller has an idea to improve the agency get it to a NATCA rep, not a stupe. No sense giving management another bonus for stealing your ideas. And Kevin, this retirement gig is nice. ATC stays in your blood, but it is pretty sweet not seeing some of the stumble-f*cks in management 5 days a week!
January 11th, 2010 at 11:36 am
““Many are eligible, but money talks”
You got that right ! At SCT,during the IWR’s, several veterans retired in protest. Blakey offers $$$ for controllers to transfer to SCT and they snatched it up. Some of them NATCA officers. Hell, we even had 3 retired people beg to come back for 30 something an hour. Then we had many people sucking up OT like a two bit HO !
Throw in all the kiss asses going to management (steve Merlin ( ex facility rep) and you have little or no solidarity. Please tell me again how stong my union is.”
The only reason any of us are working is pay. Anyone who says that is not true should just resign, walk out the door in protest, that will show the FAA what you really think. There are lots of reasons for not retiring. If you have no intention of retiring then you should make the FAA pay you as much as you possibly can. Every retention bonus they pay shows how badly they’ve planned. It costs alot more to give a vet a bonus than it does to pay a new kid, they wouldn’t spend that money if they had a choice so I think we should make it hurt. If a union officer wants to go to SCT why shouldn’t they get all the money they can?
I don’t understand some of the stuff I read on here. I would think we would want supes and managers that are NATCA friendly, but we don’t. We do everything we can to keep union people from bidding on jobs, so we end up with crap in those positions. The best supes I’ve ever had were ex-NATCA, they did everything they could to make things good for the BU, including passing on inside info. Now all we get is people that want to get away from traffic, and it’s all our fault!
January 11th, 2010 at 11:59 am
I have a tentative offer letter. I have been told that there WILL NOT be a firm offer letter until after the beginning of fiscal year of 2011 (begins in 10/2010). This is different then what I was told I may expect at the time I received my tentative offer letter. I would guess something has changed in the last few months; perhaps it is just the stagnant economy producing low traffic volumes. I do have it on good authority that the center I will report to is at risk of being understaffed if volume increases, and many of the tenured people are now eligible to retire at anytime. I just hope I get in before the most experienced trainers retire. I do agree that now is the golden opportunity even if it means being overstaffed. It would give the experience a chance to rub off before volume picks up, and the experience is gone. Its hard to say when volume will increase, but I hope it does soon. I was laid off 2 months ago, and I need a job. I hope I get the firm offer before I’m too old to start (fiscal year 2012). I do believe that the current lull in air traffic is only temporary, and with the financial markets in recovery now. I expect GNP along with traffic volume will grow this year and next
January 11th, 2010 at 1:22 pm
PNSHD, you are correct, “this retirement gig is nice.” Hey, I don’t blame the $$$ HO’s one bit. But as you know, they don’t know what they’re missing. The past 373 days have flown by (but who’s counting?)!
January 11th, 2010 at 1:25 pm
27+,
So when the FAA says there is not a staffing problem at SCT but pays controllers to transfer there (blood money) and NATCA says DON’T take it because you are just proving the FAA right, you say “take it” anyway ? Do I have that right. ? I guess you don’t support taking away seniority for time as a FLM either ? You sound too much like a FLM or a FLM wanna be to me.
By the way, I knew of a couple of natca members who became supes and they gave Marion and her merry bunch of nazis a STANDING OVATION in STL in 2006.
Where do they fit in to your “it is ok to be a supe if you were a natca member plan?
NATCA is only as strong as its weakest link. I think I just found it.
January 11th, 2010 at 2:43 pm
“So when the FAA says there is not a staffing problem at SCT but pays controllers to transfer there (blood money) and NATCA says DON’T take it because you are just proving the FAA right, you say “take it” anyway ? Do I have that right. ? I guess you don’t support taking away seniority for time as a FLM either ?”
Blood money- who’s the idiot that made up that term? Money is money, are you taking “Blood Money” if you are staying at SCT? The FAA has a serious staffing problem and everyone knows it. They would not be paying “blood money” if they didn’t have a problem, I don’t see how that proves them right.
As for seniority, I don’t think it should ever be negotiable. Seniority should start when you start with a company and should only increase. Taking away seniority for any reason to me sounds like little kids trying to make themselves more senior. Unions fought hard to protect seniority back when they first started, to keep companies from getting rid of more expensive employees, and replacing them with cheaper new ones. (Kind of like what you seem to want to do.)
For the record I have been a controller, and only a controller, for almost 28 years. I’ve NEVER worked a staff position of any type.
January 11th, 2010 at 4:48 pm
27+, Just give the NATCA E-board at SCT a buzz and see what they call it. That is EXACTLY where I got the term “blood money” from and they are 100% correct in using it.
I take it then you don’t support taking away seniority for being a FLM ? It would not surprise me one bit if you hung out with FLMS.
It is thinking like yours that erodes the very foundation of a union.
you just don’t get it and never will.
January 11th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
SCT
I don’t think they should loose their seniority. I believe that is the reason no one qualified bid on our last flm job, now we are stuck garbage as our supe.
Like it or not there are always going to be supes. Some are ok, others suck. I don’t have a problem being friendly with someone that goes out of his way to help BU members. I also don’t have a problem with making life miserable for anyone that messes with the BU. I think you don’t “get it”.
January 11th, 2010 at 6:07 pm
stuck “with” garbage
January 11th, 2010 at 10:38 pm
….and I am stuck with GARBAGE as a person who just pays dues and calls himself a UNION MEMBER !
How about it readers ???? Do you think 27+ is correct ?? FLMS should not lose seniority ?
January 12th, 2010 at 3:59 am
Good supervisors come from the BU, just like bad ones do.
The only seniority that counts is SCD.
January 12th, 2010 at 4:11 am
“The only seniority that counts is SCD.”
As an ex-military guy I would agree with you on this one, but I don’t have a problem with it being just FAA time.
January 12th, 2010 at 5:07 am
Gotta agree with SCT here.
Any stupe that bolted in the last 3 years, was NOT a union brother. It pains me to see an ex-NLC rep as an OM. He always tries to plead his case the same way: “Wahhh, I needed the money for my family”, uhm can’t live on $120 Gs with a wife and 1 kid? Or how about when the FAA hires flms back to a facility they washed at for a $30 g raise. Then they WASH OUT AGAIN!!!! However, they go back to the lower level facility, and KEEP the raise. And they are generally the cheapest bastards in the facility.
Just my opinion.
January 12th, 2010 at 5:26 am
To me it depends on the attitude of that ex-NLC rep. If he becomes an A**hole then everyone should bury him in crap. If he takes care of the BU, I don’t mind him being a supe. I want supes that are qualified for the job, we are not getting that now!
January 12th, 2010 at 5:49 am
“Blood money- who’s the idiot that made up that term?”
I believe it was one Patrick Forrey.
Snakey, a right wing and a religious zealot, was bound and determined to bust NATCA(Labor being one of her sworn enemies)to the extent she could and hire an entirely new controller workforce on a reduced pay scale. And to some extent, with a like minded POTUS and a compliant Republican Congress, she succeeded. When it became apparent that the retirement wave was as great as NATCA predicted, Snakey found plenty of willing controllers to take the “retention” bonus(not one of those that took the 24K had ANY intention of retiring). And if you ask management about the pay ripoff of controllers most of them would agree with it. That slimy Rich Gutterball, a former SCT OM and contract team member, said as much out loud at SCT on a visit back to the facility during “negotiations. So, vets like me, about to turn eligible, are catching up. Thanks to the Obama WH and the mediators for restoring our CIP, CIC and the base pay raises at SCT. And to any of you mgmt types that thought I was overpaid(you’ll recall how you gravy trained on NATCA reclass back in the late 90s), but that you weren’t, kiss my tuckus !
January 12th, 2010 at 7:28 am
Interesting discussion.
Why isn’t anyone (NATCA) making hay from the sheer NUMBERS at the Atlanta frat party! 3600 managers for 14,300 controllers.. REALLY? That is a staggering ratio of 4:1!!! The average management to labor ratio in the US is 10:1! So much for runnin’ it like a business! NATCA should challenge the FAA to implement an across the board pay cut of 20% for management. That oughta move a half dozen supes back to the boards, save the FAA some serious coin, and get their pay closer to their training level/responsibility.
January 12th, 2010 at 8:20 am
“That oughta move a half dozen supes back to the boards,”
Pray for the flying public.
January 12th, 2010 at 8:55 am
All of the part-time instructors here in OKC (including me) have been given furlough dates, most on Feb. 5. Many of the full timers are just waiting for the axe to fall. FAA has cancelled many classes for the foreseeable future. I think the “yo-yo dieter” analogy is apt.
January 12th, 2010 at 9:31 am
27+, AS@SCT said it all. Do you GET IT NOW ? My guess is that you will never get it. Unfortunatley I work with several just like you. They can’t wait for that OT call in, socilaize with FLMs and have the GALL to call themselves a UNION member just because they pay dues.
Thank God my NATCA Pres, VP and area rep feel the same way I do.
January 12th, 2010 at 10:13 am
27+, AS@SCT said it all. Do you GET IT NOW ?
What? I agree we should have never had our pay frozen. Are you saying people should retire and be replaced by lower paid new people,(like Blakey wanted), or do you think the FAA should have to pay eligible controllers more in the form of bonuses to pay for their poor planning? Do you not like retention bonuses because YOU aren’t eligible for them (kind of like the whole seniority problem), or are you concerned that they cost the FAA too much money and make management look bad? I too thank the Obama WH and the mediators, but I don’t have a problem with making the FAA have to pay extra to keep people they were trying to get rid of. Are you upset that the mediators are giving eligible controllers 4%? Sounds kind of like a retention bonus to me.
January 12th, 2010 at 10:45 am
27+ It is quite obvious you DON’T get it. Just for the record , I have more years in the FAA as a controller than you. I have been a facility rep, area rep, NAR rep and I give over $75 a pay day to the PAC. And you ?????
I don’t volunteer for OT nor do I answer my phone when the FAA calls on my days off. I don’t socialize with any FLM’s and only talk to them if it pertains to ATC.
January 12th, 2010 at 10:58 am
Just for the record , I have more years in the FAA as a controller than you.
If you are eligible why are you taking the “blood money” instead of retiring?
January 12th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
I don’t know who SCT controller is, of if he(she)is eligible 27. Now, on to this statement of yours:
“Are you saying people should retire and be replaced by lower paid new people,(like Blakey wanted), or do you think the FAA should have to pay eligible controllers more in the form of bonuses to pay for their poor planning? Do you not like retention bonuses because YOU aren’t eligible for them (kind of like the whole seniority problem), or are you concerned that they cost the FAA too much money and make management look bad? ”
FAA didn’t pay out the 24K bonuses as a stop gap to stem the flow of retirements, they paid them as a reward for having not retired. That’s the reality, regardless of what FAA was hoping for as an intended result. As I said previously, not one of those that took the 24K had ANY intention of retiring. By the time those bonuses were paid out, the damage was already done and those that wanted to retire had already done so. JMHO. And as you indicate the mediators provided a bonus too, 4% this year and next, plus locality. No way to turn that down(we did in fact have two eligibles that did not apply for the 24K, that I know of), unless, as you indicate, you retire.
January 12th, 2010 at 1:31 pm
“As I said previously, not one of those that took the 24K had ANY intention of retiring.”
I completely agree with this statement, that’s why I don’t have a problem with those bonuses. Most of the people that took them are in their last few years, so their csrs base pay was frozen. Why not let them get a few more bucks out of the FAA before they go? Just like the people that went to SCT on “blood money”. I’d bet that they wanted to go there anyway, so why not get as much as they can when they go?
I work with a guy, a charter member, dedicated to NATCA. In the early 90′s he took a 3 month detail as a supe, did a good job, took a lot of crap about his ugly clip-on ties. Years later NATCA changes seniority retro actively, and takes that time away from him. Why? We spend too much time sweating the small stuff. When someone gets an award you hear all kinds of grumbling about how I do a better job than him, he shouldn’t have gotten that, whatever. We need to stop keeping people out of supe jobs, and get good controllers into them. We should want NATCA friendly supes that know what they are doing. Our newest supe checked out as a controller with 120% of the maximum time allowed without a recomendation from his training team. On Sat. he wasn’t qualified to be a cic and on Sunday he was the supe. This time the FAA buried the bar, no chance anyone will trip on that thing. I am sick of unqualified supes and controllers, we need to help fix this, unless we don’t want to fly anymore.
January 12th, 2010 at 2:47 pm
“Why not let them get a few more bucks out of the FAA before they go?”
Go ? LOL, not a one of them at my facility has retired since they scarfed up an extra 24K two years ago. In fact, I’ve heard a few, apparently not happy with the 4.75% base raise they’re getting (the federal cap is going up to 177K), sniffing around for yet another cash bonus. The 24K bonuses were a big FU to every non eligible controller(I got screwed on my FERS base pay, where was my bonus ?)and they were a tacit acknowledgement of support for the Snakey-Sturgeon regime in my view, intended or not. We can agree to disagree on this point.
January 12th, 2010 at 3:02 pm
Lots of good qualified people in the DOD that the FAA could pick from. The FAA’s offer to experienced DOD people is the same as those that walk in off the street with no experience. I know a guy with 20+ years DOD that was offered $33k (makes over 90K) to come to the FAA. Of course he laughed at them.
But if someone goes FAA to DOD they keep their pay if they are in the GS band, or go to the top of the band if they are over. Interesting how the DOD saves pay and the FAA doesn’t. That’s running it like a business.
January 12th, 2010 at 5:22 pm
27+, why do stay working you ask…because I have a son who has MS that is why. He needs 24/7 medical care and that requires lots of extra $$$$.
Can I still tend to his needs and be a strong union member ? DAMN RIGHT I CAN. Something you will never know. As a matter of fact , from reading your responses to all of the posts you know NOTHING about sacrafice. Please tell me again about the union positions you have held in your 27 plus years.
January 12th, 2010 at 8:33 pm
AS@SCT
I agree.
SCT Controller
Everyone has a reason. That is why I don’t have a problem with people getting extra, even you, old man. I’ve held a few NATCA positions. I don’t need to toot my own horn,but I will say this, and duck. I have seen facreps that quite honestly remind me of supes…taking a position to get off the floor.
January 13th, 2010 at 12:07 am
OWNED!!! My facrep makes me sick, traffic dodger to the core.
January 13th, 2010 at 6:33 am
27 +,
Once again you have shown that you just don’t get it. As for being a old man, come out to SCT sometime and let this “old man” show you a thing or 2.
You are pathetic.
January 13th, 2010 at 6:52 am
SCT Controller
I only said old man because you told me you’ve been with the FAA more than 28 years. According to my kids that makes you an old man.
“come out to SCT sometime and let this “old man” show you a thing or 2.”
Now that comment makes me think you are a high school kid making believe you are a controller. Are you challenging me to a fight on the playground after lunch? Or did you mean you are the “ace of the base” and you want to show me how a big shot works traffic?
I must be “pathetic”, I keep reading your crap.
January 13th, 2010 at 7:12 am
SCT controller is really a WOMAN that pretends to be a man online so her “fellow” controllers won’t suspect she’s making these posts!
January 13th, 2010 at 8:07 am
The 24K bonuses were just one way in which Snakey manipulated the controller workforce. I almost have to laugh when I think back to 2005 and the then SCT manager coming back from a circle jerk in DC, and telling us the FAA was “going out of business”. All of we rank and file controllers who had been at FAA for 15 or more years, were used to FAA spewing nonsense at us. But this “going out of business” jive, that Snakey used as her mantr(and one of her justifications for her IWRs) was way beyond anything I had heard in the previous 17 years. Yea, to hear Snakey tell it, FAA didn’t have a pot to pee in or a window to throw it out because the NATCA contract was “too rich”. Listening to her now, whoring for taxpayer dollars and invoking the “european ATC model” for Nextgen projects, is a scream.
January 13th, 2010 at 8:35 am
I still don’t think Snakey manipulated anyone with the bonuses, like you said, they weren’t going to retire anyway. I agree with the rest.
January 13th, 2010 at 8:45 am
Sure she did. She singled out one group of controllers and rewarded them(where was my bonus for ?) for not doing something they never had any intention of doing anyway, retiring. Driving a wedge between controllers may not constitute manipulation in your mind, but it does in mine.
January 13th, 2010 at 9:09 am
I understand your point, but I really don’t think she “wanted” to give anyone in the BU a bonus.
January 13th, 2010 at 9:54 am
We’re using the word bonus, not sure what Snakey considered them to be. And those 24K retention payments were in response to the retirement wave (too late) that NATCA predicted, and political pressure (we were right and FAA was wrong). The fact that it caused dissension among the controller BU was of no concern to Snakey. Everything she did was manipulative. Her entire agenda was pure manipulation, lies, and a complete flim flam. And bottom line, the 24Ks did nothing to bolster controller staffing…they weren’t retiring anyway.
January 13th, 2010 at 1:26 pm
Hey 27, “I don’t need to toot my own horn…” No ****, after reading what you think about pay and bonuses it is quite clear you are tooting managements horn….so to speak ! I agree with SCT , you are pathetic.
January 14th, 2010 at 3:50 am
Isn’t it interesting how some people get so upset when they see someone else get a bonus that they don’t get, yet it makes perfect sense to them that they get a big CIP when others get nothing.
January 14th, 2010 at 5:45 am
I don’t plan to retire, but I’m eligible. If I take the $, I’ll be able to send my kid to school, make my mortgage, and support my PAC. I think SCT is becoming attracted to 27+ .
January 14th, 2010 at 6:13 am
Quadnuts
Not every facility is short staffed enough to offer the bonus, if you can get it, I think you should take it.
January 14th, 2010 at 7:06 am
“Isn’t it interesting how some people get so upset when they see someone else get a bonus that they don’t get, yet it makes perfect sense to them that they get a big CIP when others get nothing.”
Apples and oranges 27, CIP(a negotiated premium pay)and the 24Ks(a stop gap, too late payoff for not retiring). And if you are implying that I’m upset, you’d be wrong. Disappointed yes, upset, not a chance. Oh, about 5100 or so NATCA members receive CIP…how many got the 24Ks ? Cheers !
January 14th, 2010 at 7:09 am
“I think SCT is becoming attracted to 27+”
Interesting commentary from a guy named Quadnuts.
Cheers !
January 14th, 2010 at 7:42 am
Many got less than 24K. Many even less than your CIP, which is fine with me, but I’ve heard the grumbling. As far as “apples and oranges”, sounds like my manager giving me the old “different pot” bull.
January 14th, 2010 at 8:44 am
As@sct, you/we are wasting our time with guys like 4 nuts and 27+. They are the reason the union will never be unified. They will always make an excuse to hang out with supes, answer that OT call in and bid management jobs not to mention advocate seniortity for FLMs. I stand by my original statement….They just don’t get it.
January 14th, 2010 at 8:52 am
Lets keep it civil shall we. Your manager and his “different pot” bull, aren’t part of this discussion. CIP and the 24Ks are apples and oranges. If you can’t see the difference between a premium pay that was negotiated by NATCA that benefits over 5000 of our members, and a unilateral hail mary by Snakey to bribe controllers to “stay”, when they weren’t going to retire anyway, I can’t help you out. Does CIP encourage controllers to bid from non CIP faciliites to higher cost of living, harder to staff facilities…yes it does. Did the 24Ks accomplish their stated goals ?
Like I said, I’m not upset nor surprised that controllers at my facility took the bribe money, just disappointed.
January 14th, 2010 at 8:58 am
I don’t see it as a waste of time, merely a discussion about a difference of opinion. I still socialize with the controllers that took the 24Ks, I don’t shun them. I disagree with what they did. And I know it was a flim flam and a scam (like most of what Snakey did) that didn’t bolster controller staffing. By the time the 24Ks were handed out, all of those that were going to retire had already done so. In fact, two of the controllers at SCT that took the 24s, are currently on age 56 waivers. Like I said, a scam.
January 14th, 2010 at 8:59 am
benefits over 5000 of our members
Good point. As with most negotiations, you take care of the majority. It usually helps with elections too.
January 14th, 2010 at 9:03 am
LOL yea CIP sure helped Forrey.
January 14th, 2010 at 10:48 am
On the otherhand, maybe I should retire and take the 50% cut. That would really stick it to the agency. One less moderate mind would also help the unification effort SCT seeks.
January 14th, 2010 at 11:34 am
“On the otherhand, maybe I should retire and take the 50% cut. That would really stick it to the agency. One less moderate mind would also help the unification effort SCT seeks.”
More apples and oranges. I’m eligible to retire this year and I will. Not first day eligible, but this year and on my time table. Not a one year artificial one, set by the FAA in exchange for taking a lump sum cash bonus, in some flim flam thank you maam, put in your paperwork and then pull it scam.
January 14th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
AS
You have got to be one of the most misserable people to work with, with your constant complaining, I imagine as soon as you leave the TRACON everyone is laughing at your sorry a**. We have one at our facility also, people put up with his Debbie Downer behavior because he’s the facrep, but as soon as he leave’s the room they are laughing their a** off. You say some of these people on this forum just don’t get it??? I tend to think that really… you don’t get it. When your type retire, people you work with rejoice and usually throw parties after you leave. No… you just don’t get it!
January 14th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
SCT I thought I told you before that you don’t have a UNION, you have an association.
January 14th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
Rehire, I hear you but it sure would be nice to see some solidarity in whatever NATCA is.
As far as Just Me’s comment about AS… I have worked with AS@SCT from day one at SCT and you could not find a nicer person. He is a team played, strong union member and educated (something tells me that you are not). My guess is that people are laughing at YOU when leave the control room and will rejoice when you retire.
January 14th, 2010 at 2:29 pm
AS
I have enjoyed chatting with you. I respect your opinion whether I agree with it or not.
JUST ME
SCT is the one that thinks we just don’t get it, not AS.
January 14th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
Just Me, it’s not me LOL. I think we’ve beat it to death 27. Nice chattin with ya.
January 14th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
AS
My appologies to you. I did mean SCT, and yes he does appear a little childish in most of his responses. As far as knowing anything about me, you couldn’t be further from the truth SCT!
January 14th, 2010 at 3:59 pm
Right back at ya ! you know nothing about me . you and 27 still don’t get it.
over and out !
January 14th, 2010 at 4:37 pm
SCT
I have read most of your responses on this forum and 95% of them are you complaining about something… so I guess, I feel like I know you… but probably glad I don’t, which is kinda sad.
January 14th, 2010 at 5:57 pm
Is SCT Controller going to answer this question:
“make life miserable for them.”
Weren’t you complaining about that happening to controllers a few months ago?
January 14th, 2010 at 8:53 pm
SCT is a split tail, she gets miserable EVERY month!
January 14th, 2010 at 10:30 pm
I work primarily in retirements and benefits. I’m not going to say which region because I prefer a certain level of anonymity.
I believe the way that the ATO implemented the $24K retention incentives was a disaster. It was very clear early-on that local management was colluding with controllers and telling them to submit a retirement application so they can get their retention incentive. About 90% of the incentives in my region went to employees at a certain Level 12 Tower and Level 12 Tracon. Every retirement eligible employee from those two facilities mailed in a retirement application to our office. It got to the point where we knew all these application were bogus, so we didn’t even bother processing them.
I believe there was 1 employee out of about 45 that actually planned on retiring and was surprised that his manager offered him a retention incentive.
Also, we did have 1 employee out of the 45 that retired immediately after the 1 year service obligation was up. The rest are still working for us.
It’s clear that these employees would have stayed even if they didn’t get the retention incentives.
January 15th, 2010 at 4:10 am
Juan
Not cool.
January 15th, 2010 at 7:06 am
FAA HR Guy Says:
“It got to the point where we knew all these application were bogus, so we didn’t even bother processing them.”
You know what? I am going to run with this one. I am sending a copy of this blog to Babbit, The inspector general and members of congress that deal with aviation. While I have heard this story being sent around the rumor-mill I can’t believe that people in HR would purposely not process retirement paperwork because they THINK they know what is going on. It is wrong on so many levels I can’t believe you would be so stupid to admit to that. Unless you can read minds you could NEVER know, only assume you know what these people where thinking. If you take a second to look, the economy tanked and so did TSPs, there was also a light down the tunnel for a real contract and possible pay raises (And higher high 3s) More importantly working conditions HAVE improved due to finally having a real, signed contract. I dare say we are probably as high as 212 out of 216 agencies now instead of 214. I am sure the number crunchers would call that a 100% improvement in performance, since we went from 2nd from the bottom to 4th (OR BETTER!).
FAAGuy,
Give it a rest, he is ignoring your question, just like you ignore the point people are trying to make to you all the time. Good that you got some of your own medicine.
January 15th, 2010 at 11:40 am
“Also, we did have 1 employee out of the 45 that retired immediately after the 1 year service obligation was up. The rest are still working for us.”
Like I said, nothing but a scam. By the time Snakey decided to offer these “bonuses”(amazing, she had millions to pay out in bonuses from a bankrupt agency)the damage was already done. The 24s were just another slap in the face to the majority of the BU.
January 15th, 2010 at 3:30 pm
What NATCA should have done was take away the seniority of anyone who took the 24k bonus just like they did for the rehired annuitants.
January 15th, 2010 at 4:12 pm
They take the bonus so you take their seniority? What about the people that are getting .04 now, isn’t that a retention bonus?
January 15th, 2010 at 6:41 pm
Actually, the administrator would applaud my work. For employees to get their retention incentives, all I had to do was verify that the employee submitted a retirement application to us and verify that they were eligible to retire. This was documented on the retention incentive application and sent to ATO management for approval. Why spend 2 hours + FedEx shipping costs to process a retirement application from someone you know isn’t going to retire? Then there is an additional hour of work to cancel a retirement that has already been processed and shipped out to payroll.
Oh, I forgot to mention that every week we would be asked to provide a list of all the controllers that submitted retirement applications and which ones cancelled their retirement because they accepted the retention incentive. This was just a farce so ATO management could say that they prevented X number of employees from retiring by offering these incentives, when the reality is that they wouldn’t have retired anyway. This probably ended up as a bullet point on some ATO senior manager’s resume. “Developed a strategic retention program to keep veteran talent within the organization….blah blah blah.” That’s a lot of money down the drain for a bullet point.
January 15th, 2010 at 7:28 pm
No it isn’t a retention bonus. It was NEGOITIATED by NATCA !
Please read comment # 103. That explains it all.
January 15th, 2010 at 7:49 pm
It was NEGOITIATED by NATCA !
It thought it was awarded by the arbitrators, I can’t believe NATCA would want some to get more than others. I think they are hoping it will help with retention.
January 15th, 2010 at 8:15 pm
What I was talking about in post #97 and #103 were the 24K retention incentives offered in 2008, which were paid out as bonuses and not base-pay increases. I have no idea whether NATCA negotiated to get them or not.
Now, the arbitrators awarded retirement-eligible controllers an extra 1% base pay increase starting in 2010. That was not negotiated by NATCA.
January 15th, 2010 at 9:53 pm
“What about the people that are getting .04 now, isn’t that a retention bonus?”
It is, and for every retirement eligible controller. Not just the ones Snakey decided to “reward” with a non base cash payoff. NATCA may not have (I don’t know what if any input NATCA had in this decision) specifically negotiated the .04, but it was in the broader framework of real contract talks, not imposed work and pay rules. The .04 applies to two years, 2010 and 2011. For the record, I missed the .04 by eight weeks this year. And the prospect of a .04 (plus locality) in January 2011 is not going to change my plans to retire this year.
January 16th, 2010 at 3:52 am
is not going to change my plans to retire this year.
The “.04 retention bonus” might change other peoples plans. If the convention had taken away seniority like they attempted, I would think the .04 would be an interesting fight.
I know, “different pot” oops, I mean “apples and oranges”.
January 16th, 2010 at 5:50 am
The 24Ks didn’t change anyone’s plans, we’ve established that. Now, who exactly is “they”. I’ve been to conventions and have seen all manner of constitutional amendment proposals offered up on the floor. Last, ops money is ops money. The FAA gets one appropriation each fiscal year, operations and F and E. It’s how those dollars were used (or misued) under Snakey, and their relation to controller staffing that are at issue here.
January 16th, 2010 at 11:21 am
FAAHRGUY: As a recipient of a retention incentive, I have to agree that the way the program is administered is suspect. First, the staffing level of the facilities should be the determining factor. I know that some supes/controllers in some larger facilities are collecting an incentive not to retire when in fact, if they retired, their facilities would not be affected. Now my case and sneakers(whom I work with) is different. The eligible to retire folks are 48% of the facilities CPC’s. We begged the FAA for new people in the Snakey/Stooggle years and if we had recieved trainees, we would’ve trained our replacements and not been needed to be retained. Snakey/Stooggle with the help of HR, screwed the controllers over the 2006-2009 period with pay cuts(CIC) and frozen base pay. We don’t get CIP when similar facilities with tons of staffing do. Sucks for us. I’ll take the retention incentive and not be ashamed of it when we all know that pay disparites have existed in the FAA since the FAA was established. I am a charter member of NATCA, donate to the PAC and have held FACREP and other positions. I’m the guy that Sneakers talked about who did take a temp supe job(for 3 months) over a decade ago and got my seniority stripped retroactively. I am still die-hard NATCA but am getting a bit tired of hearing all this crap when years ago, our up/down facility was left out to dry when the big boys took the lions share of the Reclass pie.
January 16th, 2010 at 11:38 am
“We don’t get CIP when similar facilities with tons of staffing do. Sucks for us. I’ll take the retention incentive and not be ashamed of it when we all know that pay disparites have existed in the FAA since the FAA was established.”
CIP, controller incentive pay, was (is) based on cost of living within zip codes. CIP and the retention money are not connected in any way, shape or form in my opinion. You took the 24K, that was your choice. But can you honestly say that without it you or anyone else at your facility would have retired ?
You weren’t happy with reclass, join the club. At a minimum you got the 5% op diff rolled in to your base pay (do that pension math over 12 years). And my guess is you got an additional pay raise as well. Do the math on staying on the GS/seperate op diff and what you make now, and get back to me.
January 16th, 2010 at 11:43 am
“They” was the last convention. I believe that is what HeavyD was referring to in post 101. It still sounds so un-union like hearing people talk about taking away seniority.
January 16th, 2010 at 3:15 pm
“Do the math on staying on the GS/seperate op diff and what you make now, and get back to me”.
Ok, I did the math.
If we had stayed GS, I would now be a GS-12 Step 10 in RUS. 93922.50 with locality AND 5% ATRA.
Under current ATSPP pay plan(RECLASS), ATC 7, I am at 95,500.00! Thanks for the 1379.00 extra dollars.
Your turn!
GS14 Step 10(San Diego locality) plus 5% ATRA=__________________
ATC 12 Top of 2006 ATSPP band, San Diego Locality)=________
CIP is for cost of living????????Yeah right, look at some of the places that get it and those that don’t. They aren’t looking at cost of living or else alot of places wouldn’t get much and some places that don’t get it would get much more. Same with locality pay….
Sorry for the rant but looking forward to the numbers on your end….
January 17th, 2010 at 7:31 am
AS@SCT Says:
January 16th, 2010 at 5:50 am
The 24Ks didn’t change anyone’s plans, we’ve established that.
One more thing….what’s this 24K thing. Might be 24K(pure gold) for the ATC12 guys and manglement but with us you should be calling it the 14K’s. Big difference!
January 17th, 2010 at 3:22 pm
Why can’t people spell “sepARATe? See: there’s A RAT in separate!
Whenever I start reading an article, if the word separate is misspelled, I stop reading. The author isn’t educated enough to have anything interesting enough to read.
January 17th, 2010 at 6:31 pm
I/m not the one complaining about pay Just. And ATC 12 pay demands ATC work, not to mention the cost of living in San Diego/CIP. You feel justified in having taken money from Snakey to prevent you from doing something you had no intention of doing anyway. What facility(and what ATC level ?) are you at where you got so little (according to your math) under reclass?
January 17th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
I got it, sorry. You were a GS 12 and your facility got a 7. OK, what facility ?
January 17th, 2010 at 8:54 pm
The original point was that it’s silly to whine about others taking pointless bonuses awarded for retirement eligibility, when you get paid an equally pointless bonus for retention in a facility where the salary and neighborhood do enough to attract qualified applicants. How many controllers would ATC-12 pay, San Diego locality and a paid PCS attract? Answer: enough to make your CIP look as pointless as it really is.
It’s also telling that the guy from SCT so quick to s**t on another BUE is staying past eligibility, no matter how that affects NATCA’s presentation of “reality” to Congress, because he has his reasons. You know what? So does the other guy. Pull the stick out of your a$$.
January 17th, 2010 at 9:10 pm
LOL yea, if zero ATC experience constitutes “qualified”. You equate retention bonuses to eligibles, who had no intention of retiring, to CIP facilities in high cost of living areas. Pull your head out of your a$$.
It’s about time for all of you NATCA members here to start revealing where you work. It’s easy to take shots hiding behind an alias.
January 17th, 2010 at 9:20 pm
Didn’t NATCA play a significant role in formulating the distribution of CIP?
January 17th, 2010 at 9:43 pm
FWIW, I know two controllers who have been selected in SCT’s most recent bid. Both will go, if they are released. Of course, that’s hardly a given.
Both of them have radar experience at an ATC-10 or -11, and at least four years as CPCs. One comes from a terminal facility and the other comes from a center. Both of them will see at least a $30,000 bump to their salaries, before you start discussing CIP. Out of curiosity, how many transfers did you guys get during the IWRs when they were phasing that CIP out?
I don’t care whether you receive CIP or you don’t. I just find the self-appointed sheriffs of NATCA really tiresome, especially when their self-interested actions or decisions hurt the union more than the people they’re calling out. Controller A accepts a retirement eligibility bonus; Controller B stays past eligibility and got a lot more out of reclass than Controller A. Both A and B prove that the FAA can pay enough money to keep the people it needs to move airplanes, and both of them hurt NATCA’s case when it tells Congress that everybody is Leaving In Droves. But both of them are also BUEs, and maybe one BUE should just give the other BUE the benefit of the doubt, instead of indulging in this smug, top-of-the-scale groupthink bulls**t.
January 17th, 2010 at 10:28 pm
Midairderision says,
“Controller A accepts a retirement eligibility bonus; Controller B stays past eligibility and got a lot more out of reclass than Controller A. Both A and B prove that the FAA can pay enough money to keep the people it needs to move airplanes, and both of them hurt NATCA’s case when it tells Congress that everybody is Leaving In Droves.”
Midairderision–You are correct. The FAA at my facility DID take action(incentives to not retire)at my facility to hold on to 48% of its’ CPC’s. It DID piss off NATCA as you can see by the above posts. NATCA wanted us all to retire to prove the FAA’s failure but everyone has their own reasons to do what is best for themselves and their facility. I am still in NATCA(charter member) in spite of my difference of opinion with my union but am tired of the verbal and written abuse that we(the ones who accepted the retention agreements) have taken. As Sneakers has said in previous posts, the fact that the FAA has so many people on a retention agreement in one facility is proof that the staffing crisis was not handled properly and with foresight years ago.
AS-Still waiting for the GS to ATC comparison that I spent time posting for my ATC7/GS12 facility.
January 18th, 2010 at 4:59 am
“The FAA at my facility DID take action(incentives to not retire)at my facility to hold on to 48% of its’ CPC’s.”
What facility would that be Just ? And not one of you would have retired if the “I’ll put my paperwork in, pull it and then get a bonus scam, hadn’t been paid to you
“It DID piss off NATCA as you can see by the above posts. NATCA wanted us all to retire to prove the FAA’s failure but everyone has their own reasons to do what is best for themselves and their facility.”
Really ? Which elected official of NATCA told you that you should retire ? Are you going to reveal where you work ATC 7 traffic for 95K, or keep hiding behind an alias ?
Waiting for what ? You’re making 95K to work ATC 7 traffic. I worked GSO (greensboro NC) in the late 80s for GS/12 pay. We pushed 235,000 ops a year. Places like AVL, ILM, and other level 3 up downs, made the same pay and pushed 30-40% less traffic. Those faciliites are ATC 7s now and GSO is an 8. You were at a soft GS/12 facility and now you’re an ATC 7 and pissed off, i get it.
“the fact that the FAA has so many people on a retention agreement in one facility is proof that the staffing crisis was not handled properly and with foresight years ago.”
Snakey didn’t hire anyone for three straight years from 03 to 06. Is this the period you are refering to ? Where do all of you work ? Why this bashfullness about revealing your facility IDs ?
January 18th, 2010 at 5:09 am
“FWIW, I know two controllers who have been selected in SCT’s most recent bid.” “Both of them have radar experience at an ATC-10 or -11,”
Is that so ? What are their names and facilities ? I wasn’t aware that you were an expert on SCT’s staffing, CIP and retention Midair. Two controllers huh ? Let me know when they’re inbound, OK ? What facility do you work at Mid ?
Hey FAA Guy, your hero Blakey cut my CIP three times and Stoogell would have taken the rest if McBush had won. What facility are you at, and do receive CIP ?
January 18th, 2010 at 5:23 am
AS@STC
“Your turn!
GS14 Step 10(San Diego locality) plus 5% ATRA=__________________
ATC 12 Top of 2006 ATSPP band, San Diego Locality)=________”
Seperate
I don’t pay attention to this stuff, but I am now curious. What is the difference between your pay and the gs pay you would have been getting? I am in no way implying that you do not deserve that money, nor am I jealous, just nosey.
January 18th, 2010 at 5:33 am
I get it. Soft GS12s who feel they got shafted when their facilities got ATC 7s. Reminds me of JAX, a soft GS14 up down, the only 14s in fact who got ATC 9.
I honestly don’t know what I would be making if NATCA hadn’t gotten reclass done for all of our members. I’ve never done the calculations. I know what I make now thanks to my union and Mr Obama.
What facility are you at 27 ?
January 18th, 2010 at 6:10 am
You know I’ve been talking about the garbage I work for, are you trying to scare me off? It won’t work.
January 18th, 2010 at 6:17 am
I never said I got shafted, I just said I was curious. You are very good with facts, I didn’t think that question would upset you.
January 18th, 2010 at 6:19 am
My facility and whether I receive CIP is irrelevant. I just asked the question about whether NATCA had significant involvement in the distribution of CIP among the facilities. I remember hearing something about it, but wasn’t sure.
January 18th, 2010 at 6:36 am
You won’t even tell me what facility you work at 27, but you want me to answer specific questions about my pay.
Now, I never said that you did say you got shafted. I said the retention bonuses were a scam and had no impact on retention or controller staffing.
Like I said, I’ve personally never done the calculations GS vs ATC. My guess is my base is 40K higher than it would have been, the Bush Blakey two step on controller’s faces not withstanding. It’s easy enough to find out what my base pay is, if you’re that concerned about it, and then compare it to a GS14 step 8 (I think) with SD locality.
If you were at a soft 12, pushing 160-190K ops a year and now you’re an ATC 7, your base pay is probably about right. It’s easy to take shots at me while you stay cloaked.
January 18th, 2010 at 6:39 am
“My facility and whether I receive CIP is irrelevant. I just asked the question about whether NATCA had significant involvement in the distribution of CIP among the facilities. I remember hearing something about it, but wasn’t sure.”
LOL so what’s your CIP percentage ? If you mean signficant involvement as in true contract negotations, something your hero Blakey wouldn’t stand for, then yes, NATCA had a say in CIP distribution with Garvey and Babbitt.
What facility do you work at ? What’s with this bashfullness about where one works ? And are you on an FAA computer posting this FAA Guy ?
January 18th, 2010 at 7:15 am
I was just informed that my area rep(SAN) was replaced because he was bidding supervisor jobs while he was the rep. He had no idea what the NATCA constitution said about that. How well a job do you think he did being my rep ?
What a POS !
According to what I read by 27 +, if he was a good guy then it is ok . Ya Right !
January 18th, 2010 at 7:27 am
AS
I am not taking shots at you.
SCT
I would not care if he bid a sup job. Call me what you like.
January 18th, 2010 at 7:58 am
You and Just, posting your opinions here about your facility staffing, retention bonuses, how you were treated on pay and the like, while taking shots at SCT and CIP facilities in general, without revealing what facility you are at, is intellectually dishonest in my view.
Where do you work ?
AS
SCT
January 18th, 2010 at 8:33 am
A soft level 7 like you said. Why does it matter which one? What shot did I take at SCT or CIP facilities?
January 18th, 2010 at 8:51 am
OK, you won’t tell me where you work.
Nice chattin with ya.
AS
SCT
January 18th, 2010 at 9:40 am
It’s been fun.
January 18th, 2010 at 10:04 am
27+,
I would not care if he bid a sup job.
Like my fellow SCT controllers said ” you just don’t get it”
You are truly PATHETIC if you cannot see it.
Nice chattin with ya…..NOT !
January 18th, 2010 at 10:07 am
This is (or will be, if I have anything to do with it) a discussion about ideas, not people. FWIW, I’m an en route guy, Athas, and we’ll leave it at that.
Originally, SCT Controller took a shot at 27+ Wearing Sneakers in post #41 (“NATCA is only as strong as its weakest link. I think I just found it”). SCT Controller was irritated that 27+ Wearing Sneakers wasn’t as furious about retirement eligibility bonuses as he was (“blood money”). In post #55, SCT Controller speculated that 27+ Wearing Sneakers spent his time waiting to take the “OT call” and chatting with FLMs. Later, SCT Controller revealed that he was eligible for retirement in post #57, but had decided to remain because his son needed expensive medical care – a perfectly honorable motive, as far as I’m concerned.
This exchange sums up a lot of what is wrong with NATCA. A disagreement about Big Union Policy leads to a Big Union Guy telling anyone who disagrees that he just must not have enough Solidarity, otherwise he would “get it.” F**k that.
NATCA disliked the retirement eligibility bonuses because it hurt NATCA’s case to Congress about the IWRs, and the pay bumps were awarded to a very small number of CPCs without union input. If that’s true, then what should NATCA’s opinion have been of people who stayed on, even without getting a special incentive? What should NATCA’s opinion have been of staff members in the bargaining unit, who still got their raises without union input? For example, SCT Controller is working past eligibility and training his replacements, which is exactly what FAA wants him to do – and for no more money than the contract requires! I respect his reasons for doing so, but how dare he call someone else out for doing the same thing, implying that their motives could not be nearly as pure?
NATCA has lots of sheriffs in every facility. They pay attention to people who make the grievous error of talking to supervisors, as if they were former controllers and human beings. They pay attention to people who grumble less about working the same OT that they work. They pay attention to a lot of things that just don’t matter to NATCA’s organizational health, or controllers generally. They work hard to alienate other dues-paying members who happen to believe differently, instead of explaining patiently why what they think is correct. Usually they can’t explain themselves, so they just ostracize those unfortunate people from the NATCA clique.
So go on, and tell me all the bulls**t that’s filtered down from NATCA HQ. Be sure to use lots of buzzwords like “blood money” and “traitor.” Whatever you do, don’t stop to think for a minute that NATCA might have the wrong idea. In fact, don’t stop to think.
January 18th, 2010 at 10:54 am
R U telling me that you think there is nothing wrong with a area rep, who is supposed to be representing me, bidding a supe job ? You have got to be joking ! I cannot take the chance of me being in the middle of …..if I go NATCA on the OM/supervisor I may not get the job. No thanks. Get rid of him ASAP !
Just for the record, I agree with just about everything SCT wrote.
January 18th, 2010 at 11:43 am
Thanks for that long winded manifesto Midair. An “enroute guy” and an expert on SCT’s staffing. Impressive.
I didn’t use the words blood money or traitor in any of my posts. I simply said I was disappointed that union members took a retention bonus, when they had no intenton of retiring, and that it was a scam because it didn’t add to controller staffing. You care to refute any of that ?
So, what Z are you at, and what are your operating initials….BS ?
January 18th, 2010 at 11:56 am
Uh, I never talked about that, ORD DUDE, but it’s easy for me to understand that a conflict of interest for a union representative is a bad thing for the employee he’s representing.
It’s a little less clear to me:
(1) Why it makes any difference to NATCA why you stay past retirement eligibility. If X controllers stay past retirement, FAA can argue to Congress and the next arbitration panel that the job is so good that X controllers are working for 50-60% pay. If Y% of X controllers are staying without any other incentives, FAA’s case is that much stronger for leaving the pay bands where they are, hiring fewer people, etc., etc.
(2) What makes CIP so much more worthwhile than the retirement eligibility bonuses. I am sure that you can find facilities with worse CPC-trainee and CPC-operations count ratios than some of the CIP facilities. Most of the CIP facilities are in desirable locations and pay at the top of the AT scale already. CIP was negotiated, and retirement eligibility bonuses were not, but really – does either need to exist for their stated purpose, to the extent that they do? I’m sure that Nantucket needs every penny of CIP to make their ATC-5 tower attractive to employees, but does SCT or C90 need it?
Apparently, just asking questions like this makes me a bad NATCA member. I guess it’s also in poor taste for me to contradict someone who claims to represent Big Union’s viewpoint in this discussion. I welcome anybody to tell me why they’re right and I’m wrong.
January 18th, 2010 at 12:07 pm
So CIP, that 5100 of our members receive, a premiuim pay that was negotiated under Garvey and Babbitt, and the scam retention money paid out by Snakey to those controllers she choose to give it to, were/are equally worthwhile ? I strongly disagree. You’re obviously not at a Z that gets CIP.
“I am sure that you can find facilities with worse CPC-trainee and CPC-operations count ratios than some of the CIP facilities. Most of the CIP facilities are in desirable locations and pay at the top of the AT scale already.”
And I am sure that this part of your post is totally unsubstantiated and nothing more than your opinion. Care to provide some facts in addition to your diatribes “enroute guy” ?
January 18th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
Midair says:
“I’m sure that Nantucket needs every penny of CIP to make their ATC-5 tower attractive to employees, but does SCT or C90 need it?”
Did the controllers who took the “retention” money “need it” ? Not a single one who took it at SCT has retired. In fact, two of them are currently on age 56 waivers. Like I said, nothing but a scam that didn’t help staffing.
January 18th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
Okay. Let’s compare SCT with ZLA, since SCT’s contained pretty much entirely by ZLA and their traffic probably compares well. (ZLA’s not my Z, in case you wondered.) I’m using this StuckMic post to tell me who gets CIP, this FAA publication to tell me their CPCs:trainees, and ATADS to tell me what their ops counts were between 1/1/08 and 12/31/08.
SCT has a 7.4% CIP, and ZLA has zero CIP. As far as CPCs:trainees, SCT is 2.11:1 while ZLA is 3.37:1. However, 19 of SCT’s trainees are CPC transfers, while none of ZLA’s are. SCT attracted at least 19 CPC bidders as of last year, and at least 2 more this year, out of just the controllers I happen to know. As far as the ops counts, SCT’s was 2,167,595 while ZLA worked 2,209,027. The only difference between ZLA and SCT is that SCT is in more of a trough with CPCs, but they’re getting CPC transfers because Feinstein had the DOT IG whip the FAA for LAX, NCT and SCT.
Both SCT and ZLA are ATC-12s, as of 2007. The median price for a house in Los Angeles is $409,000, while the same house in San Diego costs $375,000. Aside from the numbers, San Diego is beautiful and Palmdale is a foreclosure-ridden s**thole. I admit I have no way of determining this scientifically, but my gut tells me that very few CPCs leave SCT to make the same money or less somewhere else. I can see incentive pay while SCT rebuilds, but why should SCT continue to get CIP once its staffing recovers, especially when ZLA works most of the same traffic and gets nothing?
So that’s why I think what I think. You may disagree, and you may have a better argument than I do. But simple disagreement with you or anyone else doesn’t make me or 27+ less NATCA than you.
January 18th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
LOL ZLA is no where near the city of Los Angeles. So using home prices and cost of living arguments for Los Angeles in a comparison between Palmdale and San Diego is absurd. I don’t know where you live (since you’re still hiding behing an alias), but I can tell you, 375K doesn’t even buy a single family home in a decent area of San Diego (city limits).
Furthermore the Zs have traditionally taken zero experience new hires off the street. Busier terminals almost never did (well until Snakey had to reinvent the wheel, trying to prove she could hire anyone from anywhere to be a controller). So comparing an enroute center to a busy terminal in terms of trainees, ratios and the like, really isn’t a valid comparison. No mor evalid in fact than comparing cost of living between Palmdale and the city of San Diego.
I’m curious where all of these FAA CPC transfers you’re alluding to are coming from. We have three in my area. Only one of whom has any radar background. Eight other trainees have never been controllers before anywhere and one has some Navy tower time.
Senators don’t whip IGs, they make requests of them. And so far, there’s little to show for it.
5100 NATCA members earn CIP, you’re obviously not one of them. You’d sing a different tune if you were. As far as making you or anyone else feel “less” NATCA, I can’t help you with your own union self esteem issues, nor am I responsible for them.
So, where do you work ?
January 18th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
“So, what Z are you at, and what are your operating initials….BS ?
OK, you won’t tell me where you work.
So, where do you work ?
Where do you work ?”
Is this Hank?
January 18th, 2010 at 2:58 pm
No, it’s AS at SCT and I resent the comparison to the Bush appointee Krankowski. You (and others) won’t reveal where you work because you have me and other the SCT controllers here at a disadvantage. It’s gutless, but it’s obviously an advantage.
For example, Midair uses a center he doesn’t even work at (because he won’t reveal where he works), to make a flawed argument that SCT’s CIP doesn’t work and should be taken away (Snakey-Stoogel made the same case and did in fact cut CIP three times). Of course he won’t reveal which Z he works at. It would weaken his debating position.
And for the record, I have never said any member should have to give the retention bonus money back. I said it was scam and pointed out why I thought so. Some of you NATCA members seem to be arguing that CIP should be taken away from most if not all of the 5100 NATCA members who earn it, because it’s no different in your eyes than the retention scam money.
So let me get this straight, who among you wants to see the FAA cut/eliminate CIP for most if not all NATCA members ? Don’t be shy now.
AS
SCT
January 18th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
“You (and others) won’t reveal where you work because you have me and other the SCT controllers here at a disadvantage. It’s gutless, but it’s obviously an advantage.”
I don’t see the advantage, I haven’t said anything against your facility.
“So let me get this straight, who among you wants to see the FAA cut/eliminate CIP for most if not all NATCA members ? Don’t be shy now.”
I don’t want you to give it up. And for the record, I don’t care who your are.
January 18th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
27+ is a supervisor or a NUF wreaking havoc on this blog.
Could be Lazar.
January 18th, 2010 at 5:46 pm
I don’t understand what “havoc”. I said that we need the screen back to reduce the workload on trainers in the field wasting years training people that shouldn’t be there. I’ve said that I think it is the best interest of the BU to have supes that are NATCA friendly, and I am sick of what we have now and want supes that are qualified for the job. I said that I didn’t see a problem with people taking the retention bonus. I never said I was against CIP. I said I didn’t have a problem with people getting extra money to move to a new facility (like SCT). AS asked a friend of mine to compare where he would be without reclass, which he did. My friend asked AS the same question but didn’t get an answer, so I asked again, out of curiosity,not anger. I guess you concider me causing “havoc” because I don’t shut up when someone tells me “I don’t get it” and am “pathetic”.
I thought my chatting with AS was friendly. Things seemed to change when the pay difference came up, but I didn’t bring it up. I honestly do not care what anyone out there is making, get whatever you can.
January 18th, 2010 at 6:01 pm
ass@sct…does it really matter where anyone works?
You say that the 24K paid to people that weren’t going to retire anyway didn’t help your staffing?
First of all, what gives you the right to decide if I was going to go or not? You don’t know.
Second, by staying past my eligible retirement date, I DID help your staffing. You want a seasoned veteran, or a trainee?
Third, you just don’t get it, do you? I don’t give a rats ass what NATCA thinks I should do…They don’t pay my bills.
Now STFU and go back to the break room.
January 19th, 2010 at 5:26 am
27 says:
“And for the record, I don’t care who your are.”
I get it, you’re a get along kind of guy. Maybe a little too cozy with mgmt at the ATC 7 you work at. But this phrase is simply naive:
“I’ve said that I think it is the best interest of the BU to have supes that are NATCA friendly”
I think it’s in the best intests of the BU that NATCA NOT have reps that bid FLM jobs, but rather do their jobs representing members. And for the record, I don’t care what you think. Mgmt is going to take whatever marching orders FAA gives them. So your notion of “NATCA friendly” is frankly absurd. The years under Snakey Stoogle are a perfect example. I saw relatively benign mgmt types at SCT turn in to ogres when FAA gave them the green light to do so. NATCA friendly ? LMAO.
AS
SCT
January 19th, 2010 at 5:39 am
I’ve seen supes do things for the BU that would totally piss off Snakey. I guess we are all products of our own enviroment.
“And for the record, I don’t care what you think.”
Good for you. We all have the right to our opinions, and we all will never agree on everything/anything.
The Hank thing was a joke, if it offended you I am sorry.
January 19th, 2010 at 5:42 am
Eligible to be confused says:
“ass@sct…does it really matter where anyone works?”
What matters to me is my business, not yours.
Next:
“You say that the 24K paid to people that weren’t going to retire anyway didn’t help your staffing?”
Controllers took scam retention money not to retire, who had no intention of retiring anyway. Net addition to our staffing = 0.
Next:
“First of all, what gives you the right to decide if I was going to go or not? You don’t know.”
You’re confusing me with what others have posted here. I haven’t said a word in this thread about when any controller “should” retire. Go back and read my posts.
Next:
“Second, by staying past my eligible retirement date, I DID help your staffing. You want a seasoned veteran, or a trainee?”
Again, you’re confusing me with someone else. I haven’t said a word in this thread about when any controller “should” retire.
Next:
“Third, you just don’t get it, do you? I don’t give a rats ass what NATCA thinks I should do…They don’t pay my bills.”
Actually it would appear that you’re the one that can’t differentiate between my posted comments here about controller retirement and others. You’ve associated comments to me that I never said. And if you paid dues to a union that you didn’t give a rats ass about, thanks for playing and paying.
Next:
“Now STFU and go back to the break room.”
You sound like some FAA FLM who chugged the Bush Blakey koolaid.
Enjoy your retirement. It should give you plenty of time to work on your reading comprehension.
AS
SCT
January 19th, 2010 at 5:49 am
“I’ve seen supes do things for the BU that would totally piss off Snakey”
What things ? Be specific.
January 19th, 2010 at 1:01 pm
What things? Be specific.
Who the hell do you think you are, Dick Cheney? I’ve been a controller for almost 28 years. I’ve worked for asses, and I’ve worked for some really good people that I am proud to call my friends, but I don’t work for you.
January 19th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
First a comparison to Krakowski for which you apologized, and now Cheney. I’m supposed to tell you what my base pay is, but when I ask which one of your pals in mgmt did something that would piss off Snakey, I get this in response. Your passive, aggressive nature is shining through.
Come on 27, which one of your pals in mgmt let your wear a ball cap on a holiday swing shift, during the IWRs ?
LMAO
AS
SCT
January 19th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
Paul will probably turn off the comments soon, but before he does – Congrats Paul, your Mariners have been working hard this offseason. They just inked King Felix. Along with Cliff Lee and the rest, the M’s will be a formidable contender.
January 19th, 2010 at 3:57 pm
When I said Hank I was joking, when I said Dick I was not.
Sorry Paul, this got a little out of hand.
January 19th, 2010 at 5:26 pm
I did my time, and when it was time I retired in protest. (January 2007)If we all did that the faa would have folded. That is what solidarity is all about.
January 19th, 2010 at 5:34 pm
Like I said ..27+ is supervisor or a NUF !
January 19th, 2010 at 6:06 pm
RC, not all of us are at retirement age. If you had quit when the IWR went into effect you might have made a point.
January 19th, 2010 at 8:10 pm
I love the continuing myth of the screen.
King Felix/Lee are pretty good for the Mariners, but wait til you get to see Chone Figgins play every day. The combo of Ichiro/Figgins will be epic to watch.
January 20th, 2010 at 2:46 am
Guys like Figgins do not excite me. “Small ball” does not excite me. Scoring runs in big bunches because you’ve got several high OBP guys that get on base and then some high SLG guys that hit home runs? That excites me.
That said, I think the M’s are a seriously better team than last year. This is good, because we weren’t really an 85 win team last year; we were actually more like an 80 win team that got reallllly lucky.
That said, I think that this year we’ll be more like an 87 to 92 win team, and I can’t see serious competition coming from the A’s, Rangers, or Angels. I’ll be saving money for two sets of playoff tickets, both the M’s and the Sounders, this fall!
As far as this whole thread of comments… holy cow. Pretty decent discussion, although it looks like there’s been too many personal shots taken at each other (as usual). Some were by people I usually agree with, others by people I disagree with.
Either way, I wish you all would knock it off. I’m more hands-off with the Follies now, for a couple of reasons. First, there’s some other tremendous writing coming out on the FAA. One of these days I’m going to update the Blogroll with the various FAA-related blogs out there.
Second, I’m busier with other things. After getting beat in the ZSE FacRep election, I figured “well, I’ve given my time and effort. The voters made their decision; I’ll step back a bit.” Hence, NATCA stuff has taken a bit of a back seat. I haven’t been on the BBS in some time (it’s pretty weak these days anyway- the hyperfearful crowd has really declawed it and “moderated” it into irrelevance.)
Anyway, if you’re commenting here and you find yourself saying something about the other PERSON instead of the point they’re making, you suck and you should stop it.
And if you see someone you AGREE with doing it, you should do the honorable thing and tell them to knock it off. Quit questioning people’s loyalty or motivations and deal with the FACTS and their OPINIONS as much as you can, without referring to what YOU presume their motivations are.
January 20th, 2010 at 8:05 am
When I could I voted with my feet. I could have stayed until today and continued my full pay. The point is I didn’t just talk about it I did it. I didn’t become a supervisor, I didn’t beg for my job back, and I didn’t take any money from snakey and the gang. I earnestly thought I sacrificed for my fellow controllers that I worked with for 25 years. If it wasn’t enough, I don’t know what to say.
January 24th, 2010 at 2:09 pm
Hi All,
I must admit that I have not been on this site before. Being a civilian has me out of the loop somewhat.
But I noticed that Air Traffic Controllers still have the same problem they had back in 1981. The FAA continues to work them with money and other perks to create dissension in the union and it still works. When is NATCA going to quit fighting among itself? What I see in these posts are just an electronic version of what we were going through before the strike in 1981. You all know what is wrong with the FAA and the system. You are all controllers, (even the planted one’s that are stoking the dissension fires on an agenda from the FAA – quit falling for it), and you all know what needs to be done from within.
We made the tactical mistake in 1981 of thinking the FAA would fire a certain amount of strikers, care just barely enough about flight safety, and rehire the majority of us.
Boy, we were really naive…
But I was the editor of the Seattle Needle and never gave any quarter to the desk jockeys that ran the FAA, regionally or nationally. You cannot either. But do it smart. Fighting with each other is a joy to behold by FAA management. Step back from brinkmanship with each other and turn that energy towards the FAA. Bickering with each other is truly self-defeating and demoralizing.
Remember, management 101 advises the FAA to make sure controllers fight with each other to keep them off-balance. (Amongst other tactics). Striking in 1981 made have been morally right, but all it did was devastate the controllers future, enrich the controllers that stayed to work and reenforce the FAA/Union Buster groups belief that their tactics were valid, safety be dammed.
Best of all wishes to Natca & Controllers in your response to challenges and endeavours. Even winning the occassional skirmish will not be truly satisfying. The battle will never go away so take what you can win for safety and benefits and keep the good fight going. Your futures and the flying public deserve your focused energies that you have so much of.
I would have been back among you in 1994 had they not stonewalled President Clinton’s rehiring goals. I do miss the job. Private business never has been as rewarding to me in any form.
Robert Sherrell
January 24th, 2010 at 9:38 pm
I read this blog every day, and I see the same stuff from the same folks over and over. Controllers are some of the most talented and skilled professionals in the world, but they are routinely their own worst enemies. I disagree that the FAA revels in controllers fighting amongst themselves. Controllers are type A personalities and they do that with out any encouragement from an outside source. I know, I was a controller and a union rep. Now I’m an FLM. Some want to paint me as a no talent, blood-sucking, anti-union, POS. Let’s be clear. Talking to airplanes is the best job in the FAA, probably the world. I loved my previous job, and if I could have done it past age 56 I’d still be doing it. Since I’m not allowed too, I’m a manager. I strive to be the guy that I wanted to work for. There are more managers like me than there are POS’s. Base your opinions on observations and reality instead of generalizations. If your reality is that your FLM’s suck ( and I’ve been there ) then respond accordingly. But, if you get a decent human being as an FLM ( also, been there ) don’t be a d**k just because you can. It’s a waste of your time.
January 26th, 2010 at 11:16 am
BeenThere, Nice post. I agree 100% with you. I have had great supes and managers in the past but it does seem that in the past decade, the skills of the supes and managers took a sudden decline. We have all hashed out why and my opinion is that the requirements/skills for becoming a supe are now less than that is required for becoming a good air traffic controller. Our last couple of supes didn’t have to pass a test,screen or board to become a supe. All they needed was to be annoited by the ATM and the HUB Manager. Annoited! What a joke! Bring back the screen, bring back an SIDP type of promotion board and quit just promoting folks without requiring some sort of skill set that will make them excellent supes and managers.
January 27th, 2010 at 9:42 am
“Let’s be clear. Talking to airplanes is the best job in the FAA”
No it’s not. Not anymore. You may still think it is, or maybe you’re just saying that it is. But once Bush and Snakey imposed their IWRs, imposed their B pay scale and declared open season on controllers, the job wasn’t and will never be the same. If you were a manager in 2006 or after, than you were a participant(willing or unwilling)in imposing Snakey’s reign of terror.
Belittling the profession, and I mean pushing tin, not a pencil, was all part of Snakey’s plan. She had to tear down the job, compare us to Maytag repairmen and other municipal workers, compare our salaries to rookie cops in Daytona Beach for example, insult, demean and make us in to scapegoats.
I haven’t forgotten all that jive outta Snakey’s crooked pie hole about the NATCA contract being too “rich” for the US taxpayer and that FAA was “going out of business”. Now I see bloated management ranks at my facility performing a multitude of made up tasks, and brand new furniture, desks, computers and flat screen monitors(seemingly on every exposed surface). Funny, for an outfit that was going out of business just four short years ago, FAA looks like they just hit the lottery to me.
Here’s what I want you to do Mr manager…abide by the contract, that’s all I ask(now that we actually have a real CBA again.)
January 27th, 2010 at 7:52 pm
“No it’s not. Not anymore.”
Name a better job in the FAA.
January 28th, 2010 at 12:36 am
“Let’s be clear. Talking to airplanes is the best job in the FAA”
“No it’s not. Not anymore. You may still think it is, or maybe you’re just saying that it is.”
Obviously, that is my opinion. Just as obviously, you don’t share it. I respect that, but I still think that talking to airplanes is the most fun human beings can have and still keep their clothes on.
“Belittling the profession, and I mean pushing tin, not a pencil, was all part of Snakey’s plan. She had to tear down the job, compare us to Maytag repairmen and other municipal workers, compare our salaries to rookie cops in Daytona Beach for example, insult, demean and make us in to scapegoats.”
Here we agree. What Blakey, Miniace, and the Bush Administration in general did to the Air Traffic workforce was despicable. One day trashing controllers in the press, and the next day sending out little missives saying how much they valued their employees. It was a load of crap, and apparently assumed that none of us could read.
“Here’s what I want you to do Mr manager…abide by the contract, that’s all I ask(now that we actually have a real CBA again.)”
Abiding by the contract is the minimum. Applying it to my employee’s benefit is the goal. If I “may” do it, and it helps someone out, I will do it.
January 28th, 2010 at 6:43 am
Another part of the Snakey debacle at FAA, and the theme of this thread is staffing.
Hiring zero experience new hires at a facility like SCT for example(or any busy and complex terminal facility), that to this very day, is not equipped for new hires off the street, to train and certify them, was and is a major mistake. Add a three year hiring freeze, in concert with her intent to implement IWRs and the table was set for disaster. That’s what happens when ideology and union busting trumps common sense and sound public policy.
We’ve already washed out 5 new hires(former military and CTIs)and one CPCit in my area alone. In three years, we have a grand total of two CTIs certified. The success rates and check out times couldn’t provide more clear proof. CPCits generally certify and do so in less than 12 months. New street hires generally don’t certify and the few that do, take close to three years to do so.
Meanwhile both Raytheon and FAA management have created an entirely new fifedom revolving around the 50-60 new hires at my facility that can’t spell ATC yet and probably never will. Not at this level anyway.
January 28th, 2010 at 8:01 am
Post 176
We agree, it had to happen eventually.
January 28th, 2010 at 10:18 pm
I also agree with post 176 and 177. This thread is complete!
January 29th, 2010 at 6:29 am
Two more street hires applied for ERR out of my area this week. The first step in withdrawing from training and being placed at another facility. Two years of training and just one sector each.
Complete indeed, a complete failure.
Meanwhile management scurries about, papers in hand, bouncing off the walls, comparing their cheesy neck wear, yukking it up a good portion of the day, chugging coffee and deluding themselves that this hiring scheme will ever work here.
February 2nd, 2010 at 4:13 pm
Are you kidding me? ATC is a great job. In an eight hour shift you “work” four to four and a half hours. You never take your work home with you. It’s an incredibly easy job worth about $30,000 a year. Of course, because of the large amount of information that you have to know that would probably kick it up to $50,000 a year, and then sometimes it gets busy enough to warrant $70,000 a year. So let’s say that $60,000 would be fair compensation at a busy center. After 19 years I get paid $150,000 a year and the FAA kicks in another $50,000 a year in benefits (retirement, health care, etc…)
My job is incredibly fun. Simply working airplanes on that beautiful little video game scope is entertaining and we always have tons of fun in the area — laughing and joking constantly.
The only downside is the whole “NATCA downer”.
NATCA makes different seniority rules for everyone thereby dividing the union.
NATCA makes sure that the Gestapo elite get whatever schedules they want by doing stuff like putting in a Sun/Mon RDO straight night schedule for one of the lower seniority high ranking party members which gets bid on by no one (obviously — I mean who wants such an atrocious schedule, right?), then when the party member bids on their schedule it is only then announced that the schedule is actually going to be a straight 11AM to 7PM schedule.
NATCA makes peoples lives miserable by having the NATCA SS attack them simply because they don’t goose step with enough glee at the party meetings, or because they don’t profess their loyalty to Nancy Pelosi, or because they don’t wish death to the families of all management personnel.
And heaven forbid someone doesn’t wear their NATCA t-shirt on the designated day — they might get their house firebombed.
So yes, SCT is correct about the job no longer being perfect and fun. NATCA has dorked it up pretty good, but other than that the job of air traffic controller is the greatest in the world.
February 3rd, 2010 at 1:13 am
From my post 171
“Controllers are some of the most talented and skilled professionals in the world, but they are routinely their own worst enemies.”
“ZID Says:
February 2nd, 2010 at 4:13 pm
Are you kidding me? ATC is a great job. In an eight hour shift you “work” four to four and a half hours. You never take your work home with you. It’s an incredibly easy job worth about $30,000 a year. Of course, because of the large amount of information that you have to know that would probably kick it up to $50,000 a year, and then sometimes it gets busy enough to warrant $70,000 a year. So let’s say that $60,000 would be fair compensation at a busy center. After 19 years I get paid $150,000 a year and the FAA kicks in another $50,000 a year in benefits (retirement, health care, etc…)”
This is the sort of stuff I was talking about. I don’t know about ZID, but my folks average a lot higher time on position, and with a lot of that time training on very complex sectors.
ZID, you underrate the ability needed to do this job. If it’s easy for you, more power to ya’, but historically only about 25% of the folks who want to do this job, can. You want to sell you’re ability cheap? Have at it. I don’t know for sure, but I’m guessing that you are new to ATC. and I apologize in advance if my guess is wrong. But… if I’m right… talk to me after you’ve tried to train the remaning 75% who don’t have the innate ability.
February 3rd, 2010 at 7:26 am
ZID spews:
“NATCA has dorked it up pretty good”
NUPOS ? Or are you a self loathing dues payer/NATCA hater ? Are you even a controller(a gravy training ATC mgmt type doesn’t count) ? It must have killed you when Indiana went for Obama last electon and he won the WH.
Did NATCA “dork up”(what are you, 10 years old ?)the current staffing(mess), or was that the fault of your hero Snakey and the career mgmt cadre ?
AS
SCT
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:01 am
Been There,
I don’t want to sell my abilities cheap. I’m just stating that I understand that I am overpaid — and I am very thankful for it. A lot of people at ZID whine about their pay and working conditions, but I must assume it is simply because they have never had a real job and have absolutely no understanding of the value of a days work. If the average person knew what we were paid and what we actually did for that pay there would be lynch mobs waiting for us outside of our facilities.
As to my experience, I’ve been doing this for 19 years and I am an OJTI. I currently have a new radar trainee, since I changed schedules, and he’s an intelligent young man who’s going to be just fine. I also occasionally train another kid that is also going to be able to do this job very well. However, during the final four months of last year I trained a young man who, quite frankly, I do not believe has what it takes to work at McDonald’s. Which brings me to yet another beef that I have with NATCA. The idiot that I was trying to train last year is going to wash out (rightfully so) and NATCA will do everything they can to defend this bonehead and help him keep his job. He’s already meeting with our facility’s NATCA bosses and their working on finding some technicality that the FAA might have missed so that NATCA can argue how he deserves to be certified. It’s so comforting to know that my 1.5% is going to help make the skies a little less safe.
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:17 am
AS,
I’m not a NATCA hater. I would love for NATCA to be better than it has become, and I desperately miss the camaraderie and brotherhood of the nineties. But I realize that it is a disgusting club reserved exclusively for the very few who wield its power without mercy or conscience. So all that I can do is wear my stupid little red NATCA t-shirt and scream “Heil!” whenever I pass a picture of der Fuhrer Rinaldi.
Why would I be upset that Obama won? I’m a government worker therefore I love the Democratic party. They’re the ones who got me my huge pay raise back in ’98. The Clinton administration told the FAA neogotiating team that since the Democratic party is pro labor the FAA would accept the very first proposal that NATCA pushed across the table — and voila! I got a 50% pay raise!
Who said that NATCA dorked up the staffing? That doesn’t even make sense.
And why would that horrible and evil woman be my hero?
February 3rd, 2010 at 8:58 am
ZID spews:
“I don’t want to sell my abilities cheap. I’m just stating that I understand that I am overpaid — and I am very thankful for it. A lot of people at ZID whine about their pay and working conditions, but I must assume it is simply because they have never had a real job and have absolutely no understanding of the value of a days work. If the average person knew what we were paid and what we actually did for that pay there would be lynch mobs waiting for us outside of our facilities.”
Speak for yourself. What exactly constitutes a day’s work ? Having some sweating monkey of a construction foreman yelling at you to dig that ditch a little deeper ? And all of the “average” people I speak with when I fly are extremely grateful for the work that controllers do, when our profession comes up in conversation.
“Who said that NATCA dorked up the staffing?”
No one, I asked you if you thought that they had, seeing as you’re blaming everything else on NATCA. Maybe you should go back and read what you’ve written. Sounds like NATCA hate to me.
No one from NATCA ever held a gun to your head and forced(s) you to pay dues, wear a shirt, love Pelosi, scream seig heil for Rinaldi, or recommend certification for the unqualified.
And for the record, Speaker Pelosi has been a great supporter of NATCA, whether you care to acknowledge that or not. I know, because I met with her staff numerous times.
Now, are you currently a dues paying member ? Yes or no ?
February 10th, 2010 at 7:10 pm
Figured this would be an awesome thread to present this as it relates to the FAA’s continued poor management and staffing abilities. I am a prior Navy ATC currently under a VRA bid for KTLH, I am doing my master’s thesis on ATC Fatigue caused by FAA mismanagement. Obviously getting FAA controllers to take a survey through facilities turned out to be harder than anticipated.
So, if you are an FAA controller and have 1-2 minutes, please take my survey!
http://fs2.formsite.com/andzoz/ATCsurvey/
August 31st, 2010 at 8:08 pm
I think the first 2 posters said it right,
there is no money for training. Then the second poster said how many jobs in management where they make 170k a year.
Take one of the poorest cities in California, they were paying the police chief, and everybody else in the high dollar amount. Some of them made close to a million dollars, and some of the government officals made more money than Obama.