Our Profession
Posted by Ruth Marlin on October 9th, 2009
(note to readers- a guest column by Ruth Marlin for the weekend.)
I had a disturbing conversation with a friend of mine the other day. He said he was talking to one of the vendors that does business with NATCA and he said, “Ruth Marlin must be pretty down, one day she is running for NATCA President and the next she is saying turn right, turn left.”
My first reaction was to be insulted. Where does someone who is shilling his products to our members get such a dim view of our profession? Being an air traffic controller is not less than being a NATCA officer, it is not a downgrade or demotion, it is the reason we have NATCA. I am proud to be an air traffic controller, like you, I chose this profession. NATCA officers are there to serve us, they work for us and I can only hope this vendor came by his attitude in error and not as a result of his interaction with our union officers.
The discussion gave me a chance to reflect back on the last 20 years and I can’t help but to smile when I do. It is a fantastic profession and I am excited for all of our newer members who are just starting out in this career. I chose this profession because I wanted to be an air traffic controller, not because I thought it was a stepping-stone to other things. The day I started in this career, I did it with the intention of retiring as a controller. As that day gets closer, I am proud of the choices I have made and the opportunities it has given me.
I first became active in NATCA to advance our profession, not to get away from it. I pursued my education to give credibility to NATCA’s positions; to make our arguments stronger and to change the way people viewed us – not as a blue-collar workforce, but as talented professionals. I have always been impressed by my coworkers, and I want the world to be able to see that and be impressed by them as well.
Shortly after I got checked out, FAA managers tried to recruit me to their ranks, I know many of you have experienced the same. When I returned from DC, there were people who couldn’t understand why or how I went back to the boards, I am still asked why I don’t consider other jobs in the FAA. I don’t because I have a profession. I have a career that I love and respect and that I am proud to do. If I wanted a different career, I would have chosen it.
For those of you starting in this career, there are people who will tell you that air traffic control is an “entry level position”. They will say you can make a greater contribution if you move into management. I am writing this to offer a different perspective. If you have been checked out for a year or more, I know you are hearing the same things I did, work on your IDP, bid a temp sup job, start climbing the ladder. If that is what you want to do, that is your choice, but there are other choices. Too often, career advancement is seen as the goal. For me, it is more rewarding to advance our profession. We have a great deal to offer our industry and our country and we can do it while pushing airplanes, not just pushing paper.
As we embark on new era working with the administration, NATCA can create more opportunities for our members to influence the outcome of new technologies, new procedures and new structures for the FAA. Our younger members have the biggest role to play in that future, if you are willing. The controllers hired in the last six years will be the leaders of our union soon. The current officers are all nearing retirement age together. The hiring freeze didn’t just create an experience gap in the workforce; it is in our union too. We have thousands of talented members who are willing and able to do the work to advance our profession and many have been afforded those opportunities.
For those that have yet to identify their role, I have always said that you do not need a title to be active in NATCA and it is something I truly believe. The danger for our union is if our members see “positions” in NATCA the way they see jobs where you bid and are ranked by points. Instead of looking for people checking boxes and building a resume, we should be looking for talent, drive and enthusiasm and cultivating it from the ground up.
Do not wait for your union to ask you to do something; if you see an opportunity, have an idea, see a need to be filled, step up. Our early activists were not held back by their lack of experience, no one had any experience back then. Instead they grabbed the opportunity, in many cases forced their way into the club, and made NATCA more than it had been before. The need for that type of initiative is not gone, we have just gotten a bit more bureaucratic over the years. Our members should look past that to build their union, the union we want it to be.
Our danger comes when union officers are seen as the boss, the authority figure to whom we answer. That is not the structure of our union. The constitution establishes the convention body the supreme ruling body for a reason. Every member can offer resolutions and speak to any issue for a reason, the NEB is required to carry out the will of the body precisely because we wanted it that way. The officers work for the members, but can only do so if the members chose to have their voices heard.
If you chose to advance your profession, it is not done quietly. It does not happen by waiting to be told what to do. If happens when you take pride in your chosen career, pride in the work you do and pride in bringing your ideas forward. Our union is our best avenue to advance our professions, be engaged, be active and be vocal.
October 9th, 2009 at 7:31 am
I have really enjoyed my career as an air traffic controller. I have had the opportunities and been encouraged to bid on Sup jobs but have declined. I’m doing what I want to do and advancing nicely toward my goal (2 yrs, 2 mos, 27 days).
It really is a worthwhile profession. The “job” part has been stressful over the past few years but things are looking better and will slowly change as the pendulum swings back to the place where controllers are utilized for more than moving airplanes and their input on technological advances is a part of the modernization of the system.
If I had it to do all over…the only thing that I would do different is to start earlier. I’ve served as Facrep at two facilities and served on the National Legislative Committee and the National Constitution Committee. I have friends from around the country. I would encourage every controller to be an active member of NATCA. Life has ben good.
BTW, thanks for all that you have done to advance our profession, Ruth.
No alias for me.
John SGF
October 10th, 2009 at 5:43 am
Right on, Ruth! Our union is an amazing organization when it is driven by the membership. We all do well to remember that. paying dues is not like paying insurance premiums, where we pony up the cash and then sit back and hope we never need the service. paying dues is the gateway to activism, or it should be. It’s our ticket to getting involved and being part of the process to promote our profession and the safety of the flying public. Just yesterday I came across a sad little statement in a blog (atcontrol101.blogspot.com) which stated that our union’s #1 goal was to get controllers more money. What a dim and skewed view of what we are about.
Engaged, active, and vocal. Amen. It’s the only way to go!
October 10th, 2009 at 9:35 am
I was upset recently when my Manager took some controllers aside and explained to them how abysmal their performance was in a relatively minor incident. She even asked another employee to stay and listen as that employee would be able to learn from the “mistakes” of co-workers. (I figured she must have learned this management technique in St. Louis.)
This was somewhat upsetting to me but there was a plus side. Within a week, the Union received 6 new membership applications and at least one was inspired by the above situation.
October 11th, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Hey Management Type Puke, Where are you on this ? We are still waiting to hear why you took that FLM job.
Was it…. “I really felt I could make a change for the better ?” or ” If I did not take it some inept person would”
Come on , just admit it….you sucked as a controller and ran from the traffic. Whatever the reason, know that you will never have any respect from me.
October 13th, 2009 at 10:56 am
There are some managers who get into that side of things for the right reasons. We shouldn’t assume that EVERY manager does it for the wrong reasons.
The point that Ruth is making here is that when the younger members get the recruitment pitch, they shouldn’t believe that it’s the ONLY way to make a difference. Anyone can make a difference by working through NATCA. Safety, legislative, technology, training… there’s a ton of different ways that someone can chip in and contribute to the future of our profession.
Hopefully people hear this message and understand.
Frankly, I think people have more of a chance of contributing towards positive change by working within the union than they do in management, mostly because dissenters in the union aren’t under the threat of being fired or risking their job if they piss off the powers that be. This means they can speak more freely and take positions that are outright opposite to the status quo if they want.
October 13th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
FAA mangement is “above” working airplanes, but they want a CPC NOT involved in a particular incident to hang around and listen while they counsel other controllers who were ? The vast majority of FLMs at my facility are not only not area rated, in many cases they aren’t certified on anything.
The Bush Blakey gang went way out of their way to harangue, demean, belittle and demonize controllers as overpaid and underworked, made our jobs out to be little more than municipal street cleaners, and told anyone who would listen what a lousy deal the taxpayers were getting on the Green book.
But overloaded management ranks at facilities across the NAS apparently ARE a good deal for the taxpayers. More people to supervise fewer people who are being asked to work more airplanes.
Mangagement is guilty as sin on this. They encourage those they identify as upwardly “mobile” to leave the ranks of the unwashed. And in reality, with the advent of pay reclass and the last few years of mgmt gone wild, plenty will jump at the offer. ATO/ATC facility mgmt….the biggest gravy train job in the federal workforce…hands down.
My FAA “career” is growing very short and frankly, I’ll be glad to get away from the toxic environment that is the norm at way too many faciliites today.
October 13th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
Great post AS@SCT. Trust me, life in retirement is wonderful BUT I will never forget what Bush and Blakey did to this profession. Nor will I ever forget those people who drank the Kool-aid…..especially after June of 2006 !
October 14th, 2009 at 2:10 am
Ahhhhh shut up ! Stop the constant complaining will ya ? My God !!
October 14th, 2009 at 6:36 am
Sure thing 68. Anything else boss ?
Shine your shoes boss ? How high boss ?
I love the STFU crowd. We controllers aren’t supposed to be pissed off, shouldn’t recall and recount what has happened the last few years and should just turn a blind eye towards the future, even though it might happen again (the next time an R wins the WH)
No thanks.
October 14th, 2009 at 10:51 am
“Ahhhhh shut up ! Stop the constant complaining will ya ? My God !!”…
Make ya a deal bubba; I’ll quit complaining when the FAA stops treating controllers like diseased livestock. It would help if the traffic dodging desk jockeys would realize that the only reason the facility exists is because of what I do at that radar scope all day. 20 years ago everyone else was referred to as “support staff”.
Now the only position not fully staffed is controller. Got plenty of management,staff,support, do nothing people, but fewer and fewer controllers.
It seems the primary criteria to be promoted is that you suck at your present job. The assistant chief at my facility washed out of this facility then returned as second in command, with authority over the people that washed him out.
“We are running the safest air traffic system in the world”…straight into the ground..
October 14th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
What exactly would be the right reasons for getting into FAA management?
We all know the wrong reasons: more money, leapfrogging the controller seniority system for a better schedule and leave, less accountability and real responsibility and/or being bad or uncomfortable at separating airplanes.
In a functional organization a management position is considered a promotion. In those organizations managers are challenged with and compensated for additional responsibility.
The last three years has only crystallized how broken and dysfunctional the FAA is. After all its managers were tasked with such weighty responsibility as enforcing an arbitrary dress code.
Taking a management job within the FAA invariably turns into an exercise in frustration for the few that are competent and qualified (and silly enough to apply).
To make it worse now most of the people applying for manager jobs are the greedy, short-sighted, ignorant, scared, one or two year CPCs.
One or two years is hardly enough time to become seasoned as a controller, let alone understand what priorities an organization tasked with the “safe orderly and expeditious” flow of air traffic should be.
The FAA ATO has evolved into an organization that has no good sense of priorities because the people managing it don’t know what they should be or even care. It doesn’t care about or treat its employees with respect.
It’s an organization devoid of leaders.
So what are the “right reasons” for taking a management position within the FAA?
October 14th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
“We all know the wrong reasons: more money”
Hey, maybe you’re independently wealthy, but I work to bring home money to my family. Are you saying that it’s dishonorable to apply for a job because the pay is better? What about the controller who wants to transfer from CAK to ORD? Are his/her intentions wrong because there is more money involved? What has NATCA been asking for the past three years? One of the biggies was more money.
“leapfrogging the controller seniority system for a better schedule and leave”
I don’t know about all facilities, but most of the time, when a controller is selected as a supervisor, they start again at 0 FLM seniority and get the crappiest days left over. As for leave, I have seen some very lean times for FLMs, where leave was impossible to get.
“being bad or uncomfortable at separating airplanes.”
I have seen a lot of FLMs over the years, and the number of them running from traffic was a very small percentage. Take someone who was a 15 year CPC and promote them to FLM. Do you know what they want to do? Work traffic. That’s their comfort zone.
“To make it worse now most of the people applying for manager jobs are the greedy, short-sighted, ignorant, scared, one or two year CPCs.”
How do you know who applies? Do you have access to the selection lists? I’ve seen a bunch of lists and the number of 1-2 year people applying is very small. Why do you call them names?
My opinion (and it’s worth EXACTLY what you paid for it): If you want to be a controller at LIT for 25 years I think you have performed a vital role in the NAS and are an honorable person. The same thing goes if you transfer into SCT after a few years. Likewise, if you choose a career path into the staff offices or management, you are performing an honorable job as well. All of these are individual career paths chosen by individual people. Why do you want to judge which one is “right” or “wrong”?
October 14th, 2009 at 7:31 pm
I should have known you’d leap in FAAGuy…
I’ve noticed a need by FAA managers to rationalize themselves to others. Delusion is a big part of most FAA managers mentality: call it self-justification.
I think deep down inside a lot of FAA managers know they don’t earn their money, but they don’t want to admit it, even to themselves. So they protest whenever the issue comes up.
The plain truth is that most people take management jobs for purely selfish reasons. They’re simply not team players at all; I’ve seen the FLMs in my area routinely stab each other in the back.
Air traffic control on the other hand is a team endeavor.
Controllers work for a living. We are held accountable for mistakes we make while working. Our productivity is tracked by the minute. Our performance is constantly scrutinized. A mistake on our part can result in property damage or loss of life.
It’s a weighty responsibility controllers accept; it’s part of the job and part of what we’re paid for.
We earn our money and get the job done in spite of the organization we work for and its absurd policies, but every time we turn around FAA management is second guessing whether we’re earning our keep.
Managers on the other hand have little or no accountability. They log 8 hours of productivity every day for doing such mundane things as answering the telephone and acting on controller schedule requests. No life or death decisions to be made there at all; in other words, less responsibility.
And they’re paid more for it to boot. No one really scrutinizes their performance. And nobody is questioning whether or not the managers are overpaid. For the last three years they got raises and bonuses while controllers did not.
Our supervisors have unchecked leeway to “adjust” their shifts and schedules. If they want leave, they just take it. A different shift for themselves – granted, and often controllers have to cover as CICs for them. Supervisors can pretty much do whatever they want. Again, no accountability.
That’s why taking the job for more money and less responsibility and less accountability isn’t right. Simply because managers don’t earn the extra money they’re paid.
You want more money as a controller you have to transfer to a busier facility and assume more responsibility. Take a manager job and you get paid more for actually having less responsibility.
Oh, I’m sure FAA managers believe they’re carrying the weight of the FAA on their shoulders, but I’ve noticed that operations run just fine when all the managers are out of the facility having one of their important meetings (like interpreting the dress code policy); in fact I’d say operations run better without managers around.
Most FAA managers actually believe that they’re critical to the organization and earn their keep. But it’s just more self-justification and delusion. In other words any FAA manager that thinks that way is a whack-job.
I’m glad you brought up the supervisor seniority, because it’s one of the many indefensible/absurd policies invented by FAA managers to protect their piece of pie.
Why would a twenty year CPC want to become a FLM with zero seniority? The supervisor seniority policies only serve to motivate junior CPCs, who have no seniority anyway, to take FLM jobs because of the additional flexibility in shifts and leave.
The junior CPCs have more to gain by bidding on manager jobs; it’s simple math.
As for their abilities as controllers many managers prefer to delude themselves. The like to believe they are/were good at working traffic and weren’t scared, even though many only had a few years on the boards before becoming managers to begin with. How could they possibly have even honed their air traffic skills in such a short period of time?
And if they were good at working air traffic, why would you leave the boards to become a manager?
Regardless controllers who worked with the managers when they were still “lowly” controllers know better. Most were only mediocre at working traffic (and have equal skills as managers).
At my facility none of our operations managers was any more than mediocre as a controller, and several were in fact poor and unreliable employees.
As for “honor” I’m incensed that an FAA manager would even utter the word considering what FAA management did to controllers for the last three years.
I think it’s just as likely you don’t know what the term means, and that explains pretty much everything…
October 15th, 2009 at 5:20 am
“They’re simply not team players at all; I’ve seen the FLMs in my area routinely stab each other in the back. Air traffic control on the other hand is a team endeavor.”
Some FLMs are not team players and some are. It’s the same in the controller ranks. I cannot tell you the number of controller conflicts I have been involved in resolving.
“Why would a twenty year CPC want to become a FLM with zero seniority?”
Each individual has their own motivations, but I assure you that 20 year CPCs do apply for the FLM position.
“And if they were good at working air traffic, why would you leave the boards to become a manager?”
The FAA has about 45K employees. Of those, about 17K are CPCs or trainees. So, the majority of jobs in the FAA are not controller positions. Don’t you think it’s a little myopic of you to think that ATCS is the only position worthy of anyone holding? How many of those other positions have you held so that you can approve or disapprove of whether they are honorable?
October 15th, 2009 at 6:07 am
Hey FAA Guy, At SCT the Om and supe positions are a dumping ground for the people who are/ were in trouble, horrible controllers or grieved their way there. From DUI’s, drug re-hab, falsifying govt. docs to several deals. We have them all. If they worked in the private sector most would have been fired long ago. Hell, the OM of the BUR area has 2 DUI’s and has NEVER been checked out anywhere but TOA twr.
She was run out of TM. Now that is bad.
Please tell me ,how am I to respect them or the FAA for those “promotions”.
October 15th, 2009 at 7:33 am
You guy’s are laughable. LOL FAA Guy has done nothing but give logical responses to the statements being made and then he’s attacked with more pathetic responses. GROW UP !!
If YOU don’t want to be anything but a controller working the floor then so be it. Be that controller and be the best that you can be. Why is it so bothersome if someone else (your friends) wants to move up ? Its borderline psychotic if you ask me. No other profession that I’m familiar with acts this way.
The biggest complainers of Management are the ones that really WANT to move up, but they know that their irrational behavior at work would never have their names put on the desk as making the selection list. They are also more worried about peer pressure from the other angry morons then doing better for themselves. The peer pressure issue that weighs on these folks is really a phone call away from sitting with “Dr. Every-things-gonna-be-alright”.
Cookoo Cookoo
October 15th, 2009 at 11:30 am
FAAGuy, I notice you don’t have much to say other than picking at bits of what I wrote without addressing the salient points. FAA managers tend to be good at selective reality.
By the way, I didn’t say the only people putting in for FLM jobs are rookies; what I said is that they have the most to gain by doing it. And the FAA is choosing those individuals instead of the 20 year veterans too.
So the management ranks continue to be filled by those who couldn’t, or didn’t want to actually perform the job they were hired and trained for: air traffic controller.
Speaking of training, how much training do FAA managers get? Controllers get two years or more comprehensive pass/fail training.
Managers get a few weeks training here and there. Pass/fail? Fat chance. College courses in management required? Nope. Prior management experience? Not necessary.
So what criteria does the FAA actually use to select managers?
They’re supposed to be probational for their first year after selection too, but even the worst FLM performers aren’t ever demoted back to the boards. Why? Because that would prove that their selection was a mistake to begin with, and FAA management doesn’t admit to making mistakes.
So what makes them qualified to be managers exactly? Simply being chosen doesn’t do it, and that’s why FAA managers get no respect. They didn’t earn the position any more than they earn the extra money they’re paid.
I said it before; I’ll say it again: FAA managers get paid more for having less responsibility and less accountability.
You can try your best to justify it all, but you’re only trying to fool yourself. You’re not fooling the vast number of controllers who know better.
Maybe you’re one of the “better” FAA managers, FAAGuy, but I doubt it. The fact that you feel the need to defend FAA managers here demonstrates that you’re more interested in wasting time justifying and rationalizing what FAA managers do than actually proving people like me wrong.
Remember, actions speak louder than words.
68Camara, you’re precisely one of the FAA managers I’ve been writing about. Your statements are so ludicrous I’d think they were simply bait if they didn’t jibe with what I’ve heard from countless tyrannical FAA managers.
It’s clear that you have no idea of the mentality of the vast body of the controller workforce (or even care).
FAA managers’ disconnect with the FAA workforce is a large part of what makes the FAA so dysfunctional. It’s assumed that making managers out of those who came from the controller ranks would ensure they understood the workforce mindset and thereby ease relations with them, but most managers/manager wannabees are so delusional and clueless (and out there – as you said, “Cookoo”) the opposite occurs.
The problem with too many FAA managers is that they didn’t get respect as controllers because they were mediocre, and they took management jobs assuming they would get instant respect. When that didn’t happen they lashed out, using their positions to abuse their authority.
Respect has to be earned; it’s not awarded by a job title or position. You managers want to change the way controllers feel about you then earn the respect you think you deserve.
The problem is that manager positions aren’t earned, even though it’s clear most who take management positions prefer to think so. That delusion carries over into the area of respect as well: if you didn’t earn the position and it was simply given to you, why wouldn’t you believe that respect is simply given to that position as well?
Talk is cheap. If you managers want to change the FAA then you are all going to have to actually do something to make it happen. You have to be committed to try making the FAA a better organization.
Do that and then maybe I’ll believe you earn that extra money you’re paid.
But then I know there are way too many managers like 68Camaro that don’t care about any of that anyway, and thus things will never change…
And unfortunately the last three years has done nothing but hurt your case.
October 15th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Hey 68, Where do you work anyway ? Fantasy land TRACON ?
Facts are a very ugly thing when it comes to proving YOUR case. If you are a supervisor that took the job after June 6 2006 you knew exactly what the deal was. You were a big part of the Bush/ Blakey plan to drive a huge wedge between management and the controllers ……. BUT you did it anyway. I don’t care what reason you give , the real answer is FOR THE MONEY ! So keep thinking you did the right thing. The controller workforce will NEVER RESPECT YOU!
October 15th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Cookoo Cookoo
October 15th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
My Final Word,
Very good write up. I agree with you 110%, many “Managers” in the FAA does just like this FAAGUY does and ignores the questions and denies any problem exists. I have tried to talk with these type of people and honestly you have to wonder if they have a soul. They all say the same garbage and could care less about their fellow worker. When and if they come off their high horses and come back to reality and work together for the better of the FAA will positive change come, I have been waiting since the 80′s and have never seen that happen so I am not holding my breath. I will give this to the FAAGUY he/she does come to listen and tries (In a very limited way) to have an exchange of some sort. I tend to take it like the nice chat I have with my Doc right before we get to the “Fun”" part of my yearly physical.
I look around and see one after another one year wonder making $80K or less sign up for a “promotion/pay raise” to $126K a year. What other job allows for that kind of progression? Seriously, there is something wrong here.
I have 20+ years in the FAA as a CPC/FPL controller, prior management education and real life management experience, sorry but 4% pay raise (actually net cut in pay) for that crap job doesn’t interest me one bit. Less work, more leave and much less self esteem to boot still not enough to interest me. What would? Actual power to MANAGE and make POSITIVE changes.
Anybody answering 68chevy is taking the bait. This person barely warrants an acknowledgment and is about as insignificant as an individual can get. Just ignore them.
October 15th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Zabnut, You are spot on with your post.
I doubt if 68 would have the balls to meet face to face after his post. Hell, he probably voted for Bush TWICE and then McCain. that would explain a lot.
October 15th, 2009 at 6:13 pm
My Final Word Says: FAAGuy, I notice you don’t have much to say other than picking at bits of what I wrote without addressing the salient points.
I’m not sure which salient points you are referring to. I have addressed many, but none from “My Final Word”.
In general, I debate those who paint groups of people with a broad brush. I have called out management types as well as controllers who do so. In my experience with the FAA, there are great people at all levels of the organization working to make the NAS the safest and most efficient in the world. Even if you don’t believe a thing I write, you cannot escape that fact. So, every controller, FLM, T%A clerk, FSDO inspector, nurse, academy instructor, and countless others I didn’t mention, worked together, in various ways, to make our system #1.
I look at all levels of the organization with pride in what we have accomplished. We may agree or disagree on the details of what we did to get there, but in the end, our Administrators, from Pete Quesada to Randy Babbit, have shaped the organization into what it is today, the envy of the rest of the world.
October 15th, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Actually my salient points are the ones you didn’t address at all, FAAGuy.
There are exceptions to every rule certainly, but when the broad brush works, I use it.
And you’ve just demonstrated another FAA manager trademark: when you can’t present a compelling or even reasonable argument, obfuscate.
October 15th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
I think when you look at the facts and see that a majority of those employed by the FAA do not separate traffic or inspect aircraft. I can think of no other agency that has so many “other” people doing other jobs with titles that have little or no meaning to them. If you had Bob and Bob from Office Space come in and do interviews they would end up getting rid of 90% of the staff people that really served no function. I think you will further find that most national and regional jobs could be contracted out or at best should be moved to a lower cost of living area and paid a much lower salary. When you discover the fact that most of these jobs are paid based on controller compensation because a large number of those very same employees came from the controller ranks it gives you a clue. It would be like a baggage handler at Southwest Airlines complaining they didn’t get the same salary as a Pilot.
Remember when reclass came out and the entire national office was up in arms about controller compensation? Remember when a few years ago Blakey compared our salary increases to the office employees then compared our pay to other public servant jobs that had very little relation to what we do? Nobody brought up the fact that a comparison of office jobs salaries in the FAA compared to the rest of the world would show we overpay office staff by a large margin. Not everybody can become a controller, most anybody can kiss rear and push paper 8.5 hours a day and look busy. When you have to train for 4 years to become a controller and one day for an office job (Have you ever heard of a person washing out from an office job in the FAA?)
Oddly enough we looked at the smaller number of employees that actually do the work to save money and not at where the real waste is in Washington.
October 15th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
LOL,….. it took you 4 years to check out ? Must not be the brightest of the angry bunch.
You said……”Oddly enough we looked at the smaller number of employees that actually do the work to save money and not at where the real waste is in Washington.”
You are so pathetic. So worried about everybody else’s job and how much money they make. Stop crying already.
The agency could lower the ATC compensation to $70,000 MAX and we would still have folks banging on the door to get in. Appreciate your jobs and seek out some psychiatric help because the anger and bitterness is amazingly high. It’s not healthy you know ?
October 15th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
Camaro, the same pay cuts should be mandatory for the management workforce. If pay is commensurate with responsibility then they should ALL take a 50% paycut tomorrow. I know of no other industry that pays $100k+ to a “manager” that lacks a college education and no other formal training. You’ve got FLMs at Zs that are not even qualified to work on any sectors making $40k and more than the controller they are supervising! How can you justify such insanity?
October 16th, 2009 at 6:05 am
68, didn’t Bush / Blakey try that very same approach ?
Look at the results you idiot. Lots of people banging on the doors that don’t know North from South. At SCT many CPC’s are working 6 day work weeks with no end in sight. There are over 100 new hires here that will never make it.
You have too much KOOL-AID in your veins. My advice is to look in the mirror and shoot yourself.
October 16th, 2009 at 6:05 am
68Chevy,
Do you even read what you type or are you as big of a moron as you appear?
“it took you 4 years to check out ? Must not be the brightest of the angry bunch.”
I checked out in less than 2 1/2 years , not that it matters. Our current average is 4-5 years, many take 7 to 9. What does it matter to you? Why do you care? Look at who is concerned about another person’s job?
“You are so pathetic. So worried about everybody else’s job and how much money they make. Stop crying already. ”
No crying here, I made $170K last year and will make about $180K this year. Even with a 0% rearkisser bonus
Who is crying now?
“The agency could lower the ATC compensation to $70,000 MAX and we would still have folks banging on the door to get in. Appreciate your jobs and seek out some psychiatric help because the anger and bitterness is amazingly high. It’s not healthy you know ?”
Hey bubba, we tried that and 4-5 year checkouts sprinkled with 50% washout rate is what we got. You are 100% correct we still have a ton of applicants. We have the wrong people applying. Get a clue, it CAN be done, we have done it, it does not work, otherwise why would we be so short staffed even though traffic has fallen by a large amount? Have an answer? OF COURSE YOU DON’T.
Again, read what you wrote. Cookoo Cookoo a couple of times and one rant after another. That is psychotic and scary. It is people like you that scare the heck out of me. What kind of hobby does a pathetic waste of space like yourself have? Coming to ATC blogs and stirring the pot? What a sad existence. You sound like one of the sore loser “managers” that can’t get over the fact that you have to negotiate again and stop imposing the agency’s will on an unwilling workforce. Great job!
October 18th, 2009 at 9:08 am
********” I made $170K last year and will make about $180K this year. Even with a 0% rearkisser bonus
Who is crying now?”*****
Really,…..who’s crying now ? The folks that read this site (Non ATCers) are thinking you folks are the biggest whiners and make $180K ! Most ATCers don’t even have a college degree. LOL Oh boy are you generating huge support now. LOL
October 19th, 2009 at 8:08 am
Hey 68, Please tell us what your degree is in. While you are at it tell us WHY you bid a supes job after June 6 , 2006. talk about COOKOOO ! I get respect for the job I do not the money I make. You get NO RESPECT.
October 19th, 2009 at 10:18 am
“Really,…..who’s crying now ? The folks that read this site (Non ATCers) are thinking you folks are the biggest whiners and make $180K ! Most ATCers don’t even have a college degree. LOL Oh boy are you generating huge support now. LOL”
Yea, you “earn” your pay 68, but we controllers don’t…right ?
You sound just like most of the turds I’ve “worked for” the last 22 years at the first line level and above. You’re probably not a bad guy away from the job, but an FAA mgmt turd non the less.
College degrees….I got a few of them including an MPA. But college degrees have nothing to do with the pay controllers earn, nor should they. Now go answer the phone, issue a spot correction for not saying NINER, and pour yourself another cup of coffee.
LOSER !
October 21st, 2009 at 9:43 pm
This is in response to Ruth Marlin’s post. She claims that the Union is supposed to be responsive to the members, and that Union leadership is NOT the boss. Here is a little bit about her behaviour when a group of controllers complained that their rights to equal treatment had been violated by an agreement that Mike McNally made, that cheated us out of our full pay raise by using the wrong rule to change pay systems. Mike later had the decency to admit that he screwed up. Ruth Marlin did OPPOSITE of what a Union Vice-President is supposed to do. She speaks with a forked tongue and is a wolf in sheeps clothing.
The FAA conducted a four year program to contract out the Level One towers. The program was supposed to be complete BEFORE the new pay system came into effect, meaning that all controllers would move to higher level facilities under the GS regulations, determining their grade and step, and then later Rule 35 would be applied to them, saving their step to an equivalent position in the pay band, i.e. a step 8 person would be put at the 80% position in the pay band. Rule 35 is the ONLY rule that can be used to change pay systems. The Union took the FAA to court, without approval from the Level One controllers, in order to try and stop the promotion of the employees. Us people in the fourth year of the program were scheduled to move to our higher level facilities two months BEFORE the new pay system came into effect. Five months before we were scheduled to move, a Federal Judge ruled against the FAA, that they had not done a required “cost analysis” before contracting, and that stopped the program. The people in the fourth year were then delayed in moving by 14 months, due to Union action in court, and due to FAA negligence. During the 14 month delay we were HELD under the GS regulations, which made sense as we were in a program “frozen” by a Federal Court. That means that when we finally moved we would have to move under the GS regulations to determine the same grade and step we would have been put at, and THEN apply Rule 35 to change pay systems. This would put our pay at the same level it would have been, and would treat us by the same rules and regulations that were applied to all other controllers, INCLUDING the people in the first three years of the program who moved as scheduled and had their pay set correctly. Halfway through the 14 month delay the Union (same Union that tried to stop our promotions) agreed with the FAA to use Rule 51 to change pay systems, which it CANNOT be used for, which put us all at the BOTTOM of our pay band at our new facilities. If I would have moved to Boeing Field in Seattle AS SCHEDULED I would have been put there as a GS(FG)-11, step 9, and then two months later would have had Rule 35 applied to me, putting me at the 90% position in the pay band, almost at the top, but due to the illegal agreement was put at the bottom of the pay band. So the FAA has taken four GS-10, step 10′s, IDENTICAL employees, sent them to the same tower, put three of them almost at the top of the pay band, and the fourth one, who was delayed by the Judge, at the bottom of the pay band. This is a violation of pay regulations, with Union approval. It is against the law to financially penalize employees as a result of a Judge’s ruling, but the FAA did it and the Union agreed. The reason they made the agreement was combining a 4.1% raise with a 5% raise, and considering that as our 9.1% “conversion raise”. The problem with that is ALL other controllers, including the people in the first three years of the program, got the 4.1% PLUS the 9.1% conversion raise, equaling 13.2% to our 9.1%. Then, to add insult to injury, in the second year of the pay raise a temporary limit was lifted, and ALL controller’s pay went up to the proper position in the pay band, EXCEPT for the delayed controllers, who REMAINED at the bottom. This cheated 29 people, who went to medium level facilities out of an average of $13,000 per year, so ALL other controllers could get 80 CENTS per PAYCHECK extra, as the raises came from a fixed amount over a three year period. When I complained to John Carr, he, about a week later, left a message on my voicemail saying, “The Union disagrees”. Excuse me, but I was paying his salary, which means I AM HIS BOSS, not the other way around. If I complain that my rights to equal treatment have been violated, he is OBLIGATED to do something about it. He later told a lady in Hilo, Hawaii, “you guys got your 9.1%”. Never mind the fact that everyone else gets 13.2%. So my own Union tries to stop my promotion, only succeeds in delaying it by 14 months, and then when I finally get promoted, agrees to put my pay at $27,000 per year LESS than other identical employees, and less than if I would have moved on time.
We had a meeting with Ruth Marlin and Tim Haines from the Union, and some FAA people in August, 2001. When I said, “you have to put our pay at the same level it would have been if we would have moved on time”, she said, “It’s just like hoping you get a promotion, and you don’t get it, it’s just the way it goes”. So she is saying that the FAA’s violation of pay regulations is “just the way it goes”. Then she got into the same car as the FAA people and went to lunch. Then, about four years ago I called her and asked what the progress was in getting the Level One pay issue straightened out, and she just hung up on me. When John Carr visited ABQ Center, one of the cheated controllers (who went to St.Petersburg, Fl. and then to ABQ) asked him if he was going to do anything about the pay disparity, and he just looked at him and walked away. He was getting paid $180,000 per year and refused to do his job. Ruth was getting $170,000. I just found out where Ruth is. I found out John Carr is retired living in the Tampa area, and I have his address. Guess what? They are both about to be sued for refusal to represent, breach of contract, fraudalent acceptance of Union wages, and participation in the violation of my civil rights. The agreement McNally made violates the Equal Pay Act, and the EPA specifically states, “A Collective Bargaining Agreement is NOT a defense available to either an employer or a labor organization, and if a CBA causes a violation of the EPA, the agreement is null and void”. I worked with a lady who came in the third year of the program, who was three steps BELOW me in the old pay system. She moved under the GS rules, becoming a GS(FG)-11, step 6, and is now at the 60% position in the pay band. I was put at the bottom of the pay band, making $9 per hour LESS than her in the new pay system, doing the exact same job, which is a violation of the Equal Pay Act. Thanks to the Union for publishing where she works. If she wouldn’t have run for President I might not have been able to track her down. I made John Carr an offer to settle for $30,000, and he just called me foul mouth names. That will be brought up in front of a jury. Oh, by the way, the FBI is investigating the situation and may file criminal charges. There is a criminal law called “Conspiracy against Rights”. It says that if “two or more agree, or conspire, to injure, oppress (including financial oppression) any person’s rights (including employment rights) under the Constitution (Equal Protection Clause)or any LAW of the United States (Equal Pay Act) those persons are guilty of Conspiracy against Rights, and it is punishable by fines and/or imprisonment.
So, don’t be surprised, Ms. Marlin, when the sheriff shows up at the center to either arrest you, or serve you with a summons. And I was hoping you would get elected President, so the group of us could take EVEN MORE money from you.
October 21st, 2009 at 10:54 pm
Blah blah blah good luck.
October 21st, 2009 at 11:46 pm
Jenson do you know what a paragraph is? They are used so that readers don’t vomit or pass out from reading on giant rambling inane post.
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:22 am
Jenson,
There these folks go, attack, attack and attack more. They can only go after your grammar or paragraph building. They attack like a true liberal ! Just like the NATCA I know !
Good luck with your lawsuit, and I hope you win. NATCA doesn’t give a hoot about the smaller facilities because they consider controllers from these facilities washouts, and they believe you should be happy that you were able to keep your job. Look at the responses on your comment,…………THEY DON’T CARE ! This should be something that all “on the fence NATCA members” should take note of. I took notice years ago and bumped up my TSP contributions to help “ME” ! Every time I post here I’m attacked as an FLM, but they are so wrong. LOL
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:43 am
…There these folks go, attack, attack and attack more. They can only go after your grammar or paragraph building. They attack like a true liberal ! Just like the NATCA I know…..
What folks ? True liberals ? LOL. Fascinating. You can deduce someone’s political philosophy based on a pararaph or two written here on the Follies. Impressive young Skywalker.
“Good luck with your lawsuit, and I hope you win. NATCA doesn’t give a hoot about the smaller facilities because they consider controllers from these facilities washouts, and they believe you should be happy that you were able to keep your job. Look at the responses on your comment,…………THEY DON’T CARE ! This should be something that all “on the fence NATCA members” should take note of. I took notice years ago and bumped up my TSP contributions to help “ME” ! Every time I post here I’m attacked as an FLM, but they are so wrong”
Are you a NATCA member than ? Doesn’t sound like it. And shouldn’t tort reform, to include the type of frivilous lawsuit you’re cheering on, be a priority for those that attack “liberals” ?
You speak for “NATCA” as if you know what you’re talking about. I ask again, are you currently a dues paying member ?
I took “notice” too three years ago, when Bush Blakey froze my base pay and stole about 125K in future pension earnings out of my pocket. Good thing the overall stock markets averages have all skyrocketd the last six months and President Obama forced the career ATO/management types at FAA back to the contract table……
I work at SCT…what facility are you at ?
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:45 am
Get em
LOL
October 22nd, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Bragging about SCT,……..LOL The Republik of Cali-for-ni-a is where your so proud of ?
October 23rd, 2009 at 6:04 am
I worked 25 years for a major department store as a stocker. I had the opportunity to bid up the ladder for a better paying position, but didn’t want to be a work dodging, junior level, management puke!
Everyone knows that it’s the stocker that carries the load and makes management look good.
Without the stocker, the whole organization would fall on it’s face!
Now that I’m retired, I look back on my career with pride! I never sold out! Of course, I can’t afford to make my mortgage payments anymore on my pension, but I’m the proudest person in the food stamp line!
You go, CPCs!
October 23rd, 2009 at 7:13 am
“Bragging about SCT,……..LOL The Republik of Cali-for-ni-a is where your so proud of ? ”
So you don’t pay NATCA dues. That’s what I figured.
And you won’t reveal where you work.
Weak response NUPOS.
December 2nd, 2009 at 6:35 am
I’m an origami fan and paper airplanes is one of my favorite forms of the art. It challenges not just your folding skills but also teaches you about aerodynamics. I remember a software called “The Greatest Paper Airplanes”. It teaches how to fold 50 different paper airplanes step by step with instructions and videos. Too bad the software is no longer distributed but there’s a website that teaches how to fold those 50 paper airplanes.
December 2nd, 2009 at 9:44 am
Crack is bad, Mmmm’Kay.