Fair process
Posted by Paul Cox on July 8th, 2009
There’s been some discussion on the NATCA boards about whether or not the union is getting what they would/could/should have expected from a Democratic President. Here’s my response in that thread:
(What we’re getting now) is exactly what we’ve been asking for- a fair, reasonable contract negotiation process.
We said that we wanted a fair impasse procedure should we be unable to work out the contract. The idea was that the impasse procedure would encourage the agency to negotiate much more fairly at the table.
Well, we have a fair impasse procedure, or at least as “fair” as we can get. We have a three-person panel of arbitrators, one of whom was the best Administrator that the FAA’s ever had and the other two who are professional, respected arbitrators that handle high-publicity, major-money types of disputes.
And from what nearly everyone on the contract team has said, the agency’s negotiators came in with a much different attitude regarding negotiations. Granted, some of THAT was probably due to a new boss at the top of the food chain saying “let’s not go in looking to screw our employees” but at least part of it had to have been because they knew perfectly well that their actions and motivations were going to be under a third party’s review.
I’d say that we are getting exactly what we wanted and asked for, exactly what we’ve been saying we wanted, from the Obama Administration- a fair shake.
The fact that the FAA must accept what the arbitrators come up with is huge. The agency no doubt hates this, and it’s quite an imposition on their ability to manage things. It’s a fair tradeoff, though, since we’re not allowed to strike.
We got a fair shake, we got what we have been saying all this time- whether it was John Carr or Pat Forrey as President, no matter who was in the White House- and for that, President Obama deserves a ton of credit.
Obama didn’t come into office and hand us everything, despite the notion that he might be “giving away the store” to the union. And if/when we win a significant raise from the infamous “White Book” set of imposed work rules, it’s not because some labor-loving Democrat is screwing the nation over to give political allies a bunch of money.
It’s because we are now getting a fair shake, and that’s all.
Next up, we need to fix the law so that this fair shake is written into the process on a legal level and not dependent upon having a reasonable person in the White House.
July 9th, 2009 at 2:51 am
I wonder how long it's going to take to fix Title 49 (which caused this whole problem) now that the Dems control the whole enchilada.
July 9th, 2009 at 5:43 am
Well, if FAA Re-auth ever passes, there's language there that will fix the whole mess.. Provided that language makes it through the Senate, and then the Comittee, to be re-presented to Congress and Senate… I know our forefathers designed our government to move slowly, but this is getting rediculous.
July 9th, 2009 at 6:12 am
I think we finally have gotten what we asked for. A fair process. Let us not bitch until we see if we got screwed.
July 8th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
The problem isn’t as much how the Congress is structured in the Constitution as it is the rules that the poltical parties have put in place.
In the Senate, it effectively takes 60 votes to get anything that represents change or serious policy through. The setup in the House gibes too much power to the committee chairs.
And of course the stink of money hangs over the whole place, both parties.
We need people-powered movements. That, to me, is the most important thing about the 2008 election. Not that we elected a black guy (named “Obama”!) but that so many people contributed small amounts of money and felt like they actually had a voice and a stake in what was going on.
We need to keep that going, build on it. The healthcare issue is the perfect testing ground for this- the majority of the public wants some form of “public option”, but the powers that be are backing away from it. Can we force it? Can we move an organize enough that they listen to us?
July 9th, 2009 at 10:17 am
A fair process has begun and some of the vermin are already getting nervous. LOL. The FAA shouldn't worry though, when NATCA regains it position, they will "do the right thing, even when nobody is looking"
July 9th, 2009 at 11:33 am
With all due respect, I have a beef with this statement:
We have a three-person panel of arbitrators, one of whom was the best Administrator that the FAA’s ever had
It should read one of whom was the best Administrator NATCA ever had. Her clueless self *ucked up the rest of the agency to make AT happy. Don't get me wrong, you guys got a helluva deal and I am happy for you. But it came at the expense of the rest of the unions. She was ignorant, had no clue what you or I do, and made bad policies worse. And don't forget that Geraldo Lavey put her up on the highest of pedistals when she stepped down. In Tech Ops, we hung that FAA Times in the stall in case we ran out of TP. You know if Geraldo likes her, she can't be good.
July 9th, 2009 at 11:34 am
If you have read the white paper that John Carr posted, Jane was the one who started it. Ask Flight Service how that sh*t worked out!
July 9th, 2009 at 11:45 am
my reference to John Carr's posting of the white paper is
http://themainbang.typepad.com/blog/2009/06/like-...
July 9th, 2009 at 4:46 pm
Dave… that perception- that Garvey sucked up to the controllers at the expense of the rest of the agency- has been proven wrong over the past few years. Or so I thought, anyway.
See, with Garvey in there, the non-AT portion of the FAA was going downhill. Less money, less support, too many clueless nimrods promoted into positions of power, etc. The blame game was played, with the nimrods promoting the idea in the FAA that it was all NATCA/controllers' fault. "We'd have more travel money, but the controller contract was too expensive. We'd have more money for training, but the controllers took it all. We'd have more support for newer, better programs, but those damn controllers- Garvey gave them all the cash. We would keep the AF techs staffing at the negotiated levels, but we just can't afford it- no money because those greedy bastard controllers took it all."
Then Garvey left, Blakey came in, the controllers took a 30 to 40% pay cut, and guess what?
Still no money for travel, training, better programs, etc. Same tools still in charge. Same stupidity going on- look at ERAM, or how they're financing ADS-B, or fix-on-fail instead of preventative maintenance, or AF technicians staffing levels…
As far as Geraldo Lavey- he has great gobs of man-love for anyone that's his boss. He could be working for Idi Amin and would claim that "hey, the guy is just misunderstood, he's working really hard for the FAA, and he agonizes over which people to slaughter every week! I'm a neutral-leans-Democrat, it has nothing to do with politics!"
(I actually believe him on that last one. His suckup abilities have nothing to do with politics.)
I think the single biggest thing the FAA needs to do over the next several years, and this might sound surprising coming from a union believer, but the biggest thing the agency needs to do is find a lot of mid- and upper-level managers who are good, solid people. The morons and madmen they have in charge right now THINK they're a bunch of brave leaders, but there's not enough spine or guts among the lot of them.
That, to me, is the biggest spot that Garvey screwed up. She didn't get enough good people installed into the decision-making slots, and now we've got morons like Ducharme getting named VPs of whatever he's the VP of (they reorganize so often I can't keep up with the new titles.)
July 9th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
I think the problem has more to do with the rules that the Congress has established for itself. In the Senate, it effectively takes 60 votes to accomplish anything of note, and single Senators have tremendous amounts of power. In the House, the committee chairs have too much power, and the majority party's leadership can crush any dissent so people tend to march in lockstep unless they can form a large enough coalition to interject themselves INTO that leadership.
And of course the stink of big money hangs over everyone, in both parties.
To me, the greatest thing about the 2008 election, the most notable thing, wasn't the fact that we elected a black guy (named "Obama", no less!) to be President. It was that so many individuals contributed money (in small amounts compared to the past) to Obama's campaign, and felt like they actually had a voice and a stake in what was going on.
We need that to continue. We need people-powered movements. We need to keep it going, to build on it. The healthcare issue is, to me, the perfect testing ground for this; over 70% of the American public wants some form of a true "public option", but the powers that be are backing away from it. Can we force the issue? Can we demand that they listen to us? Can we organize and build our voices loud enough that they follow our wishes?
We're getting to where we have the tools to reach out to one another and connect, and take more effective action. Let's get it done.
July 9th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
"now we've got morons like Ducharme getting named VPs of whatever he's the VP of (they reorganize so often I can't keep up with the new titles.)"
How much money does it cost the taxpayers every time these idiots rename or reorganize? We had "chiefs" now we have "managers", we were "fpl's" now we are "cpc's", "trainee's" are now "developmental's", "supes" are "flm's"…can you imagine how many orders and pubs needed to be rewritten for each of those changes? Why did we need those changes? Come up with a new acronym and you can spend the next 5 years getting it in the books, talk about job security.
July 9th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
Really natca is an amazing collection of misfits. For the past three years the majority has bitched that the faa screwed us over and imposed what they wanted. Now it seems that those same people would prefer that Obama let natca do the same thing to the faa. It would be inconceivable if it was any other bunch of people but from natca nothing less is expected.
By the time the mediation is all settled, maybe some of the newer guys will get their raises but most will probably not. At least we'll be able to keep collecting a paycheck many, many others have lost theirs. It would be a refreshing change if occasionally controllers realized how good a job they have, how easy it usually is, and how dumb ass fortunate they are to have the innate ability to perform it.
Please, please keep the bitching to a minimum, you'll be able to wear your flip-flops and mustard stained big Johnson t-shirts to work again by September.
July 9th, 2009 at 11:19 pm
If management and staff people had their pay frozen when ours was, there would be a lot less to bitch about.
July 9th, 2009 at 11:25 pm
Bluecat, almost any bunghole has the "inate ability" to be a flm.
July 9th, 2009 at 11:54 pm
I agree that we'd be getting a fair shake if the starting point had been the green book. However, starting from the white book may have skewed any fairness out of the equation.
July 10th, 2009 at 2:12 am
Regarding "takes 60 votes to accomplish anything…"— In fact it only takes 51. 60 is merely needed to invoke cloture and end the filibuster. So lets say FAA reauth only gets 55 votes (5 dems vote no). That doesn't mean they'll let the repubs filibuster. Reid can call a vote for cloture at any time, and those 5 blue dogs (or whatever they call themselves), may very well vote YES on cloture even though they voted NO on the bill. That is the real power of the super-majority.
July 9th, 2009 at 10:54 pm
You're stupid.
July 10th, 2009 at 12:33 am
Of course atcer if I share an opinion different from yours I must be a flm (or stupid).
I spent my time doing the union thing and then I had enough of the lies from both sides. I am done with the job, too many years of atc 11 and 12 traffic, too many years of dealing with the non-stop negativity of people such as yourself and BK. Now I volunteer helping kids and try to look at the world from a perspective different than air traffic control.
Hopefully things will improve for you when the mediated work rules kick in but if what your president released is the best of what is in there….good luck.
July 10th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Move to IRAN or North Korea you will enjoy it …………ROFLMAO…………….
July 10th, 2009 at 1:23 pm
Speaking of starting from the Green Book, I'd be curious to know what efforts were made to get the White House to undo the White Book by executive order. It would seem that at least the cost neutral items (i.e. stupidity imposed because we can) would have been good to get rid of prior to any new negotiations, if not the pay issues as well. NEB? Pat?
July 10th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
You're not stupid because you share a different opinion from mine. You're stupid because you say things like,
<blockquoate>For the past three years the majority has bitched that the faa screwed us over and imposed what they wanted. Now it seems that those same people would prefer that Obama let natca do the same thing to the faa.
You're stupid because you imply that we should just be glad we have a job instead of wanting a fair contract negotiated in good faith. I am glad I have a job, but that doesn't mean I'm under some mandate to bend over and take it from behind.
And if you're truly trying to "look at the world from a perspective different than air traffic control," and avoid the "non-stop negativity," then may I ask why you're here? You're the one who browsed to this website, went to IntenseDebate, registered a username and posted YOUR negativity to a blog post that was actually about something positive for the workforce. Why?
July 10th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Shall we start the cannonization process now for Bluecat ?
It always cracks me up when someone in management (or their sympathizers) plays the "you should just be glad you have a job" card.
Did you ever stop and think that maybe I should be "glad" because I picked a job and a career largely immune to economic cycles ?
And you're dead wrong on the pay raises Cat. The B scale is going to be fixed and the days of the Bush Blakey 2 step, all management all the time, are waning.
Oh, I like ketchup on my t shirt and fries, not mustard Mr Brummel.
July 10th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
No way B scale will get the big bucks that broke the FAA. Better hope the airplanes keep flying. Railroads are coming back soon. Get your rope ready I'm sure some will choose the noose. We are BROKE and some that have had a modern day handout just can't accept it. We ARE BROKE! No Money! Get in line! The soup is ready!
July 10th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
I love, Love, LOVE the people who read blogs or whatnot and then post comments bitching about the OTHER people who're reading the blog and posting comments. The hypocrisy just slays me every time.
July 10th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
You're not stupid because you share a different opinion from mine. You're stupid because you say things like,
You're stupid because you imply that we should just be glad we have a job instead of wanting a fair contract negotiated in good faith. I am glad I have a job, but that doesn't mean I'm under some mandate to bend over and take it from behind.
And if you're truly trying to "look at the world from a perspective different than air traffic control," and avoid the "non-stop negativity," then may I ask why you're here? You're the one who browsed to this website, went to IntenseDebate, registered a username and posted YOUR negativity to a blog post that was actually about something positive for the workforce. Why?
July 10th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
I wasn't bitching about anything or any of the other posters to this specific blog. I was referring to the same people you were in your blog, those yet to be banned from the bbs.
July 10th, 2009 at 10:48 pm
I am here because I spent 27 years working airplanes. It was a big part of me, still is. I think Paul writes one of the better blogs about what is going on and I happen to like his writing style. I never implied that you should "bend over and take it from behind", quite to the contrary. Where in what I wrote did you infer that I thought the IWR's were a good thing? My only point in the comment, which was directed towards those who complain and attack non-stop on the bbs, was that we, controllers, are fortunate. Compared to the average American, controllers are fortunate. COmpared to most of the worlds population, controllers are fortunate. That gets missed far too often by far too many.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:13 am
"At least we'll be able to keep collecting a paycheck many, many others have lost theirs. It would be a refreshing change if occasionally controllers realized how good a job they have, how easy it usually is"
Hey Bluecat19, you got a mouse in your pocket? What's this we shit? Refreshing change if controllers realized how EASY of a job we have. Put on a headset and plug in traffic dodger! You FLM's and OM's make me sick..
July 11th, 2009 at 4:34 am
Railroads? REALLY?
Come on. If you were going to be outlandish, at least follow that train of thought and tell me that I was going to lose my job to a Wookie flying the Millennium Falcon. Try again, Lando.
July 10th, 2009 at 9:35 pm
Seriously, put down the crack pipe, The FAA is FLUSH with money. If they where really serious about saving money they can start by laying off 90% of the national and regional staff, reduce the management numbers to something less than 1 supe watching 3 or 4 people.
The White book was NEVER all about the money it was imposing the agency's will on its controllers. The FAA has 30 THOUSAND people doing OTHER jobs that do not directly involve the movement of Air traffic. Many are important such as AF people and inspectors, but we also have thousands of MANAGERS that are only glorified secretaries. Many of those jobs could be accomplished by a young temp for less than $35K a year instead of a former weakstick controller getting paid $168K a year plus benefits.
We are working 6 days a week with reduced traffic bud, no way traffic could attempt to climb with as few controllers we have, the only people scrambling for their jobs are members of management, I can't recall how many times I have seen congressional testimony of the FAAMA rep crying to congress on how important they are to the organization. Oddly enough I have never seen a controller have to plead that case. I know I am needed and in a major way. At least in my neck of the woods management falsify TOP by showing themselves working 8 hours per shift and are earning (I use that term loosely) credit hours like crazy to cover those 3 week vacations they have been taking all summer long. I have to ask why falsify their TOP, what benefit is there to that? BINGO, they are now very important, if they are working themselves silly they actually need MORE management people to help give them a break, they use CICs with full FLM staffing in our facility with one sitting in the back room with their feet up in the air every single day, yet they still show themselves "working" on what was briefed to us as our official time keeper.
Controllers will never be threatened by trains, be for real. The Us is way too stuck on the gotta get there now fix to ever go back.
July 11th, 2009 at 4:50 am
Who cares about all the petty shit like bitching about managent….just show me the money on the new contract
July 11th, 2009 at 8:00 pm
If you are going as far as saying we should be grateful to have a job because we are much better off than the rest of the world then you might as well say low wage earners from McDonalds or Walmart should be grateful that they make more than most of the rest of the world's population. THAT IS A FACT.
Your advice comes from someone that is on the sidelines armchair quarterbacking what the rest of us are going through. Either you where forced to leave or left on your own, either way you are not in the trenches with us so heck yeah, it is easy to say you don't have it that bad. the very next sentence that goes with that terse comment is "If you don't like it then Quit". Seriously give it a rest.
You where darn lucky to have ANY retirement, my FSS brothers did not have it that good.
You where a controller longer than I have been, you probably where a decent controller to last that long. I agree it is a big part of my life now, the day I retire is the day I forget about the FAA.
If your life has boiled down to being so concerned about your former ATC brothers that you have to come to a blog to stir the pot I feel real real sorry for you. I have very little time in the agency, but I will fight for what is right until the day I leave and try to leave the FAA better than it is right now.
July 11th, 2009 at 8:02 pm
If you are going as far as saying we should be grateful to have a job because we are much better off than the rest of the world then you might as well say low wage earners from McDonalds or Walmart should be grateful that they make more than most of the rest of the world's population. THAT IS A FACT.
Your advice comes from someone that is on the sidelines armchair quarterbacking what the rest of us are going through. Either you where forced to leave or left on your own, either way you are not in the trenches with us so heck yeah, it is easy to say you don't have it that bad. the very next sentence that goes with that terse comment is "If you don't like it then Quit". Seriously give it a rest.
You where darn lucky to have ANY retirement, my FSS brothers did not have it that good.
You where a controller longer than I have been, you probably where a decent controller to last that long. I agree it is a big part of my life now, the day I retire is the day I forget about the FAA.
If your life has boiled down to being so concerned about the FAA that you have to come to a blog to stir the pot I feel real real sorry for you. I have very little time left in the agency, but I will fight for what is right until the day I leave and try to leave the FAA better than it is right now.
July 12th, 2009 at 3:42 am
LOL, broke the FAA ?
Tell that to Jimmy Oberstar.
Our manager came back from DC in 2005, spouting this same jive. FAA was going out of business according to Snakey because of NATCA.
What followed: Imposed work rules, B scale, pay freezes and other cuts for the A scale,but mgmt kept right on partying on the NATCA reclass pay scales…still are in fact. 70 employees at MSS 2 or higher pay at my facility, to "supervise" 235 CPCs, trainees, TMCs and staff.
And not a single dime of pay cuts for the "higher skill set", at an agency that was allegedly going out of business.
It was jive then, it's jive now.