Why the big secret?
Posted by Paul Cox on June 10th, 2009
You have to wonder- why hasn’t the FAA’s negotiating team been announced? What are they hiding?
This is just par for the course in the FAA. They can’t even stand up and say “this guy and that gal and this dude are on the contract negotiating/mediation team.” They are covered in shame.
I hate the FAA sometimes. What a bunch of gutless weenies.
June 10th, 2009 at 3:06 am
I don’t recall an announcement in 1998 or 2006 either.
June 10th, 2009 at 5:07 am
FAAGuy,
What a dumb azz reply.
During those negotiations, labor expected management to “bargain in GOOD faith’. Those that sat on the FAA’s side really didn’t matter. Today is an entirely different situation. Put the kool aid down, “CHANGE IS COMING”.
Take this to bed,
What would happen if all management didn’t come in to work for one day?
now,
What would happen if every CERTIFIED CPC, headset wearing controller didn’t come to work?
that’s the difference, we are essential versus you non-essential personnel.
June 10th, 2009 at 5:08 am
“They are covered in shame” Always. They do the wrong thing. Everytime.
June 10th, 2009 at 6:14 am
Is this what you were looking for?
“… Garvey will lead the mediation as part of a three-member panel that will also include Mediators Richard Bloch and George Cohen, who have extensive experience in mediating high profile disputes. …”
http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=10579
June 10th, 2009 at 6:17 am
Ruetheday Says:
June 10th, 2009 at 5:08 am
“They are covered in shame” Always. They do the wrong thing. Everytime.
I would slightly reword your quote to: “They do the wrong thing, everytime, even if people are watching”.
My guess is an announcement at 5:01 PM on Friday!
Finally!
June 10th, 2009 at 7:09 am
I couldn’t care less who’s on the FAA “team”.
Their precious Bush Blakey white book is about to get replaced. They know it and they don’t like it.
Tough luck. It was never a contract anyway, it wasn’t agreed to or ratified.
And Bush, the hatchet face, Blakey’s fluffer Sturgell and that punk Miniace(exiled to the central region)are all out of the picture.
Hey Lavey, if you’re reading this, kiss my took-us.
June 10th, 2009 at 7:54 am
Mikey,
those people are common knowledge and are not on the FAA’s side of the mediation process. Natca has members negotiating, the FAA has members of management negotiating and those people listed are the mediators.
June 10th, 2009 at 7:59 am
AS @ SCT …
You sure have all the answers, and a lot of hate inside. What is going to be different at SCT a year from now with a contract? What is it that you will be able to do then, that you can’t do now? Won’t you still sit in front of the scope and work the planes. You sound like someone who is not happy unless you are bittching about something. Even a new contract and a fat raise will not shut you up.
You should get a hobby … maybe work with blind kids or something…
June 10th, 2009 at 8:22 am
Yo Scareface,
While I do agree some people would/have complained no matter what, the actions the agency has since 2006 made the FAA one of the worst places to work in the government. To make such a statement as yours you have to be one in the puzzle palace or in management and where one of the very ones complaining that you were where the “Rubber meets the road” and we want some of that reclass pay raises.
Maybe you are in one of the very few fully staffed facilities and have not seen B-class new hires driving a beater to work and eating ramen noodles for lunch every day or maybe you have and could care less about your fellow coworkers. It is easy to say “then why don’t you quit” or “Shut up and face your scope” I think it is weak and cowardice and offers no solution.
Wether you wish to believe it or not, we are on the knife’s edge right now with the perfect storm of bad things coming if things don’t change very soon. I have a feeling traffic will pick up before the year’s end and be back to normal before the end of next year. I don’t know about your facility but my facility is in no way prepared.
June 10th, 2009 at 9:34 am
For the record, a fat raise *would* shut me up!
June 10th, 2009 at 9:48 am
I thought I saw a list of who was on the team but can’t seem to find it…
June 10th, 2009 at 10:36 am
I think the answer to “what would happen if every CPC didn’t show up for work” was answered back in 1981.
June 10th, 2009 at 11:36 am
and we are STILL recovering from 1981.
June 10th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
I’m with Max. I would like to evaluate the effects of a fat raise on my morale.
Also, I don’t think that completely freaking out at FAAGuy for his comment is warranted. It kind of makes your cause less sympathetic to the outsiders who read this blog.
June 10th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
AS @ SCT …
…..You sure have all the answers, and a lot of hate inside. What is going to be different at SCT a year from now with a contract?…..
So, what management job do you “perform” with the
FAA ?
….What is it that you will be able to do then, that you can’t do now?…..
Don’t know, haven’t seen the contract yet.
….Won’t you still sit in front of the scope and work the planes…….
Why sure thing boss. How high boss ? Shine your shoes boss ? Anything else boss ? You management jokers are a scream. Just because I like working airplanes and you either didn’t or sucked at, don’t hate on me for wanting a better deal than that Bush Blakey piece of dreck you called a contract.
….You sound like someone who is not happy unless you are bittching about something. Even a new contract and a fat raise will not shut you up……
One thing for sure management boy, you aren’t going to shut me up.
….You should get a hobby … maybe work with blind kids or something…….
And you should kiss my tookus, just like Lavey.
June 10th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Oh, and restoring the pay that Blakey stole from controllers on the A scale, isn’t a raise.
June 10th, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Scarface:
In defense of AS, he does work with “blind kids”. Thanks to the FAA’s hiring/staffing policies, of course.
As far as “hate” goes… well just come on down to SCT and SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND you spineless, weak-minded, soulless, irrelevant paper pusher.
That’s right, I’m still going to hate you even after a new contract. You pu55ies.
June 10th, 2009 at 1:21 pm
The bottom line is accountability with their peers and their subordinates. They don’t have the balls to deal with either one. I get up look in the mirror everyday and I like what I see. The FAA will never be able to do the same. 19 days, love my brothers and sisters I’m here until we get our day in court.FTMFAPOSPAB.
Angry Fokker
June 10th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Hey FAAGuy,
Speaking of what happens when people don’t show up, why don’t YOU not show up. I bet most people won’t be able to tell the difference and those that can will like it.
June 10th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
FAA management in ZAB are taking one 3 week vacation after another. Even though many are off the boards 2 or 3 days a week they are earning credit hours hand over fist playing mine sweeper in the back room during the fall and winter so they can take half the summer off EACH. I guess it is all fair since they cut us to TWO LEAVE slots per day during the summer. Just that should tell you who is more valuable to the operation and it is certainly not the ones they can let off on SPOT leave any time they wish during the summer.
All ask from my boss is fairness and to be treated they way they want to be treated is that too much to ask? Apparently so.
June 10th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Hey DynoMite—-Don’t twist the facts there were hundreds of scabs that showed up…that combined with low traffic kept the **** afloat…
June 10th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
TWO LEAVE slots per day during the summer
Wow, we only got 1 slot per day in the summer. Mgmt here also works buku credit hours and takes all the summer leave they want. Unless you are in the top 6 spots in seniority, no summer leave at all!
June 10th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
I don’t work credit hours as a rule but:
I find it funny how MGMT can work unlimited amounts of credit hours, like every other fed employee, yet controllers can only keep 24 on the books. And, if someone comes in early so you can go home on leave, you must burn your annual leave….you can’t use any credit hours you have that day. Not sure how/why that is legal.
They will NEVER get our trust back! NEVER!
I would like to try that big fat raise thing out too.
June 10th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
How many of you sign in up in the cab or perhaps the radar room and are expected to work immediately. Don’t get time to hang your jacket, put your lunch away or check your mail. FLM’s at my facility routinely head right for the office, where ARTS is available to them, sign in make no effort to call the cab to see how things are going. They normally saunter upstairs no less then 15 minutes and most of the time it takes them 30 minutes to get their worthless asses to the cab to supervise the operation. With me it makes no difference if we have a contract or not my impression of this agency will never change.
June 11th, 2009 at 12:15 am
The funny thing here at the ARTCC is that if you look at the sign in info, the stupes never seem to take a break. It’s either stup’n duty or admin stuff.
How do these people work eight hours without takin’ as much as a potty break? Must be dedication…..
An NO, it’s NOT a raise for the A’s.
June 11th, 2009 at 6:29 am
“I find it funny how MGMT can work unlimited amounts of credit hours, like every other fed employee, yet controllers can only keep 24 on the books”.
No funnier than the “dress code” which gives the management fashion police, many of whom can’t match a pair of shoes and a skirt or a shirt and a tie, carte blanche to send you home if they think you’re in violation.
It’s about control.
They “took” the agency back and did a heckuva job Blakey.
214 out of 216 on the last employee satisfaction survey. But to hear management tell it, the FAA is the greatest place to work in the world and the low ranking…whining rank and file employees who don’t “get it”.
We get it all right. 3000 plus CPCs who have retired the last three years, rather than work in this dysfunctional romper room.
Pat yourself on the back FAA.
June 12th, 2009 at 1:49 am
AS @ SCT,
Honestly, why do you care what someone else makes? Or how they make it? I’m not saying just be happy you have a job, I’m in the same boat as you. The white book nontract is as useless and illegal as can be but why do you make it about money or the salary of your supes? I could care less what they make, what they do, or where they are during my shift. I’m there to run traffic and go home to my family, that’s all. Why should I dislike my supe just because he got a pay raise and I didn’t? I say good for him, take the money and run cause he damn sure has somebody fooled! I guess we (NATCA) just weren’t smart enough to fool em’ this time, maybe next time! I can rattle off a few sports players that are waaay overpaid and underworked, but it’s not their coach or managers fault, it’s the owners fault, or in our case upper FAA management and Bush/Blakey. Aim higher, Brother! Stop worrying about what someone else is getting, you sound stingy and spiteful.
June 12th, 2009 at 6:44 am
Controllers have been screwed on pay, management hasn’t. And the orgy the higher skill set has been enjoying, stuffed staffing ranks, full pay raises, ample AL, TDY details all over the country, have come at controller’s expense.
Do you dispute that ?
If you’re not outraged by what Bush Blakey and the career FAA cadre have done to this profession and my union, then you haven’t been paying attention or don’t care. But that’s your business.
And it isn’t for you to say what I should be outraged about.
June 12th, 2009 at 8:01 am
AS,
You’re 100% correct, I’m in no position to say what you should or shouldn’t be outraged about. I should have chosen my phrases more correctly. In most cases I am outraged at the same things you are, except for this one.
I know EXACTLY what the FAA has done to me and our union. However, you lump FAA management into a very large basket by saying management loves what’s happening and they all should suffer both professionally and moneterially. We got screwed, beaten and taken to the woodshed. Our supes didn’t. How does it make our situation better if they get the same treatment we did?
All the IWR’s have done is drive a bigger wedge between NATCA and Management……… the one place where a healthy relationship is safest and most productive. Do you agree?
June 12th, 2009 at 10:39 am
I never said all management loves the IWRs.
And I never said they should suffer monetarily or professionally….because we both know that they won’t. They piggy backed on reclass and they continue to ride that gravy train to this day.
Any substantial return to a trusting, working realtionship, is going to take more time that I plan on working before retiring.
June 12th, 2009 at 10:55 am
Mark, I think what Ant is trying to say is don’t be pissed at someone in the higher skillset ONLY because they make more money than you. In that case you need to be pissed at the person that authorized the bigger paycheck.
My $.02…
June 12th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
I’m pissed as a taxpayer at the rampant fraud, waste and abuse that the higher skill set foists on the public daily. There is ZERO accountability for their TOP, their credit hours earned or used and on and on. It’s an outrage that FLM makes $140k before bennies for something a WCIC is perfectly capable of.
June 12th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Mark,
Just so we’re clear here….. Are you saying you’ve never said that FLM’s should suffer monetarily (i.e. have their pay cut just like us?) Because I will respectfully disagree and just leave it at that.
I think us discounting a FLM just because they got a pay raise and we didn’t is useless. I’m not ashamed to say that if I got a raise this year and they didn’t, I wouldn’t give my money back. I’d take it and run. The Marines right down the road from you at MCAS Miramar got a 5% bump last year. Do you think they wouldn’t trade their cammies for your khakis and an LES swap? Are you upset that they got a raise too?
We won’t see eye to eye on this. I agree that some at the top of the FAA should be held accountable for what they’ve done to this career field. But our FLMs are not the founders of the management feast, just the servers of the sandwiches. You wouldn’t blame a waiter for an incorrectly cooked burger, you’d blame the cook.
At the end of the day, we’re still just air traffic controllers. It’s a highly skilled job but many of us have our flaws. We’re not curing cancer or teaching children, we’re just working airplanes. It’s a very respectable career that provides us with a good life. Look at all the kids lined up outside your door to have a career like you have. This system is what it is, the backslappin’ fat cats were here before us, and they’ll be here when we’re gone.
Don’t be fooled, we’re just as big “yes men” as all the FLM’s. They said “wear this” and we did. They said “do this” and we did. And, we’ll continue to do it as long as they continue to pay us. I have a family to support, and neither of us are growing enough avacados to support a family.
June 14th, 2009 at 7:13 am
“Don’t be fooled, we’re just as big “yes men” as all the FLM’s. They said “wear this” and we did. They said “do this” and we did. And, we’ll continue to do it as long as they continue to pay us. I have a family to support, and neither of us are growing enough avacados to support a family”.
Ant: You must of missed the class on subtle rebellion. The dress code at our facility has been abused by nearly all of the controllers since Sept 3,2006. As many posters post, all of the FLM’s and all of management could no show for weeks and months and the flying public wouldn’t notice a thing. We do need our secretary to ensure paychecks though! The controllers still run the show.
June 14th, 2009 at 7:55 am
Ant – I would not blame the waiter – right up until the point came that he giggled ahead of time about the crap food he served me, said to me that it is the way the food is supposed to be, then when found out also said that I really did not deserve any better, and then called the cops when I refused to pay for food that was inedible and unsanitary.
Although this analogy does not apply to each and every FLM or OM, it applies to many. If you are in a facility that all of your FLMs were great guys, and really did not want to…. then good for you. You are either in a great place, or delusional enough about this situation to be happy – neither is really that bad!
For me, I despise the member of the higher skill set (couple years FPL experience, only low altitude experience) from my facility who went to DC to testify about how overpaid and underworked we are, while at the same time maintaining that his position deserved to be paid more. There are many FLM/OM who held the same belief in our facility.
It is almost comical in our facility. Some of the most gung ho FLMs when IWRs were implemented are already beginning to sing the new song. Several of these jokers are already singing a new song, and it is hilarious/sad to watch. Why was something a great idea a year ago, and now they want to change – closer to what most of the controllers in our facility have been proposing not only during the IWRs, but also long before.
Most controllers are far from being the “yes men” you paint us to be. Do most of us watch our step, and work within the system to remain employed? Sure. You might not see that as different from the fervent application of the IWRs by a large number of FLMs and OMs, but I do.
I understand that some FLMs were terrified to not follow the goose stepping that has occurred in the past three years. That qualifies for neither admiration nor sympathy from me, especially for those who became FLMs as it was becoming apparent that we were not going to have a contract (or later).
There are many gutless individuals “working” those positions. There are some guys who will also be decent under whatever new contract we receive. Maybe even most, and some of those guys will be content acting like reasonable human beings.
It only takes a glance at the past, though, to tell us that some will only be this way grudgingly. History also tells us that we may not even know which ones will harbor negative attitudes toward controllers, waiting for their next chance to inflict pain to those below. Most of us who were here under the green book and before will understand what I am talking about.
June 14th, 2009 at 11:18 am
The only reason our FLMs support change right now is they don’t want their pay frozen. How about that for “leadership” Each and every one of the FLMs had a choice. They chose the easy road of boot to the neck mentality the upper management is preaching and running the agency like a (FAILED) business instead of sticking to the higher road.
No I am not asking for FLMs to take thousands of dollars in pay cuts I am saying they collectively could have made this much easier on their COWORKERS, but WAY too many took the new program hook line and sinker. To hear them complain of low TOP when they themselves never stayed plugged in more than 30 minutes tops no matter if they where in the middle of a push because they where simply too weak to control traffic is mind boggling.
They want us to be accountable to the stakeholders (Boy am I tired of hearing that) then see them put in 6 hours of “work” in the area PER WEEK standing around and getting lost since CICs watch the row more than they do makes my blood boil. They FORCE me into a 6 hour overtime yet they come in and work D-SIDES or the slowest R-Side in the facility for 8 hours and force us to KEEP it open to justify them staying there to get OT.
When will the hypocrisy end?
I hope one of two things happen. We get a great contract or we get a real crappy one. I will stay for one and leave for the other and never look back.
To hear so many rumors from FLMs is sickening. They are hoping we continue to get raises so they can too, they are hoping we don’t get made whole so all this time of crapping on us will be justified in their sick minds. I got news for them too, the times of playing mind sweeper for 8 hours a day 3 times a week is just about over. They took part in creating this mess, now its time to get BACK TO WORK. What other job in the world PROMOTES poor performance like the FAA? It is time for demotions across the boards and keep the really good supes. That leaves only 1 in ten actually left in management to make us more in line with other “Business” best practice AND solves the staffing problem in one fell swoop.
June 18th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
I’m POed that YOU a-holes make what you do, working the hours (or minutes that YOU do) Go *^%!^$!%#!!(*!!& and find a REAL JOB where you eithert do as you’re told or you end up in the UNemployment line!
Whine/whine/whine and soon you’ll see things aren’t changing so YOUR choice is find a shovel and start digging ditches for a living (at minimum wage) or start appreciating what you have as you’ll NEVER get anything better than what you presently have under the White Book!
Give it a week… and you’ll see for yourself
October 24th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
I am soooo glad you are Pooed that I make $70+ an hour for working minutes at a time. For the record I have worked digging ditches and other tasks for what was minimum wage WAY back when. I know the value of a dollar, I have to say the tax payer gets a much better deal from me than a waste of space FLM that makes $75-80 and hour doing as little work as possible. (Those words came STRAIGHT from a fLMs mouth they are not mine.)
Next time you fly I hope you flying a regional jet or worse yet a puddle jumper with a pilot worrying about the next meal and rent. I hope you have major surgery and have to go to a surgeon that had little to no sleep and is making $35K a year and is $300K in debt from school.
There are a lot of things in life to be miffed about, MY PAY isn’t one of them. I got a real job and I earn it every day I am at work. I suggest you get a life if my pay is one of your problems in life. Hey did I mention I am getting about 13% pay raise over 3 years? Still I will be behind where I should be but better than the rest of you Aholes with the 2% next year and the ZEROS you will be getting the next two! HAA HAAA HAAA ROFLMAO
March 14th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
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